Episode 31

full
Published on:

9th Oct 2024

A Chat with Jennifer Knapp: Songwriter Returns to Kansas after 25 Years

Authenticity and Spirituality: Jennifer Knapp's Musical Journey

This episode examines the profound journey of Jennifer Knapp, a renowned former contemporary Christian music artist. Rising to fame in the late 1990s, Jennifer discussed her roots in the Christian music industry and her groundbreaking decision to come out as a lesbian. The discussion delves into her spiritual growth, self-acceptance, and advocacy work in the LGBTQ community. Jennifer also highlights her latest project, 'Kansas 25', celebrating the 25th anniversary of her debut album. Additionally, the episode explores broader themes regarding the intersection of LGBTQ identities with religious institutions, emphasizing the need for inclusive spiritual spaces. The conversation ends with a musical performance symbolizing the acceptance of one's true self.


00:00 Rebellious Resistance and Audience Success

01:45 Larry King Live: Jennifer Knapp's Courageous Appearance

03:02 Jennifer Knapp's Journey: From Kansas to Music Stardom

04:16 Reflecting on Kansas and Midwestern Roots

07:20 Kansas 25: Revisiting the Debut Album

15:39 Navigating Faith and Identity

29:30 The Depth of Songwriting and Spiritual Exploration

42:17 Navigating Faith and Identity

45:43 The Conditionality of Love

47:50 Reflections on Childhood and Resilience

50:59 The Complexity of Relationships

54:04 Musical Evolution and Rediscovery

57:02 Collaborations and Inspirations

01:01:57 Challenges and Advocacy in Faith Communities

01:06:38 A Painful Media Experience

01:12:21 The Journey of Self-Acceptance

01:14:45 Musical Performance: Diamond in the Rough

Transcript
Jennifer Knapp:

There was a part in going back to Kansas that felt like being

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able to celebrate that was a little bit

of rebellious resistance to say, you

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know, you try and write us out of the

church or the narrative or say that,

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you know, if we're, if we kind of go

off the beaten path a little bit that

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That there's some way that we've somehow

been a failure and I don't think that's

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the case I think a lot of people have

carried the success of this and we've

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grown into really outstanding human

beings I mean i'm amazed by my audience.

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I mean so many people that come to

my shows are working in mental health

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are working in You know, in nonprofits

that are giving back to the world and,

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and not just that, I mean, most of

those people, even if, you know, I'm

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no truck drivers that are working,

you know, in truck driving, but

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they think about themselves as being

genuinely part of their community.

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Tonight, a Christian

singer's shocking admission.

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She admits she's a lesbian,

alienating some of her fans,

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angering devout followers.

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Jennifer Knapp reveals how a

God loving woman rejected church

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teachings to be true to herself.

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Ex televangelist Ted Haggard,

who survived a notorious

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scandal, is here with us as well.

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Can you be Christian and gay?

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Should anyone have to

choose one or the other?

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Next on Larry King Live.

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Jason English (Host): I remember

watching that episode of Larry King

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live when the legendary talk show

host welcomed contemporary Christian

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music pariah, Jennifer Knapp, right

after she announced her coming out.

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It was like watching a

train wreck in slow motion.

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On one hand, you couldn't help but

admire Jennifer's courage for not just

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coming out, but sitting three feet next

to an evangelical preacher who all but

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said, she's going straight to hell.

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Jennifer talks about this appearance

during my conversation with her, calling

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it the most awkward moment of her life.

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Jennifer rose quickly in the Christian

music industry in the late:

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her debut album, Kansas, in this episode.

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We dive into the heart of Jennifer

Knapp's journey from her roots in the

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Midwest to her celebrated music career.

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We'll discuss her reflections

on growing up in Kansas, her

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experiences with contemporary

Christian music and the impact of

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her courageous decision to come out.

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Jennifer offers a profound and candid

exploration of spirituality, self

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acceptance, and the complexities

of living an authentic life.

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We also delve into her latest project,

Kansas 25, a re imagining of her debut

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album to mark its 25th anniversary.

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She shares insights into the recording

process, the artistic evolutions that

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have shaped her music and the enduring

residents of her songs with fans, old

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and new from Nashville, Tennessee,

but obviously originally from Kansas.

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Here's Jennifer Knapp.

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Let's dive in.

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Hey, Jennifer.

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So good to see you.

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Thanks.

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Thanks so much for your time.

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Jennifer Knapp: Oh my gosh, Jason.

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Thank you so much.

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I'm happy to be here hanging out

with a good old midwestern friend.

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Jason English (Host): Can you

believe, uh, we're both, uh, born,

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born and raised in the Midwest.

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Uh, so I'm from Missouri.

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Obviously you're from Kansas

growing up in Missouri.

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Kansas is always what prohibited

us from getting into Colorado.

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Jennifer Knapp: and I always, I always

had like, uh, state envy because you

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guys were like the show me state and

so much cooler, like the coolest next

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door neighbors, like Kansas, like we had

like an inferiority complex, I think.

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Jason English (Host): Oh my gosh.

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I don't know about that, but yeah, no.

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And as I've gotten older, by the

way, I think you're, I think we were

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talking, we just turned 50, but.

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You've got me by three days.

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So you're a little bit older

than me, which is great.

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Jennifer Knapp: I have so much

more wisdom than you, Jason.

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Jason English (Host): No, but as

I've, as I've gotten older, I've

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actually appreciated Kansas a lot

more, you know, uh, the Flint Hills

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and the prairies and everything.

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So, uh, so it's good.

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I don't have, I don't have quite the

issue that I had with Kansas when I was

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growing up in Missouri, but it's all good.

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Jennifer Knapp: When you get older and

wiser, I, yeah, I've, I've got a few

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songs we can maybe talk about at some

point, but I mean, and I don't, I don't

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know if you relate to this as well, like

being from the Midwest, but like, I grew

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up in a town much smaller than Columbia,

Missouri, which is where you're from.

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But the hometown I grew up in, I

think now is about:

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give or take a few thousand

people through the years.

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But I grew up in a town in the Midwest

where one of the things I talk about

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is just like, you know, you only

succeed if you don't live there

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anymore, which is a really bad kind

of way to talk about the people who

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inspire you when you're growing up.

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But, you know, You know, when you're

a kid, most of the time, all you can

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think about is like getting out of

the year, you know, one stoplight,

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one horse town and thinking about

getting on a bigger, better things.

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But as I've grown up, I've started

to appreciate, like you said, like

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the things when you're a kid, it's a

little harder to appreciate the kind

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of patience that it takes to, to stop

and observe the world around you.

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Like the Flint Hills, like it's one

of my favorite drives on all the

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planet and I've been to a lot of

places and there's nothing like it.

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When you, and there's a spot, you

know, on I 70 when you're driving to

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Colorado and it seems infernally long

to everybody and that's what everybody

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says, you know, it's like, it's just

in the way of me getting to Colorado.

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But, you know, there's, there are

moments where, and there's one

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particular moment that you only

get when you're driving west.

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to Colorado on I 70, you know, or

heading west in that way, and all

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of a sudden the Vista just opens up.

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You've thought that you're just on

this flat, nothing plane, and then you

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all of a sudden actually see the world

around you and what's happening, and

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it is one of the most beautiful things.

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And granted, it does go on for a few

hours looking like that, but it is, it

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is, You know, I think, you know, the

older I get, the more I appreciate getting

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the opportunity to actually spend time

taking that beauty in and not just to

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let it pass by or to, you know, just to

think it's something that I can write,

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write off because it's like, oh, I've

seen it, you know, check it off a list.

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I think to see the beauty in things

and it takes a little time and some

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patience and that's kind of one of the

things that I, as I've grown older and

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time has gone by that I've definitely

come to appreciate about my homeland.

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Jason English (Host): No, that's awesome.

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Well, I have two Kansas related

Kansas, the state related questions.

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Then obviously we'll get to the Kansas 25,

all the, all the great news about that.

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Your, uh, your new album.

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So I know you came into contemporary

Christian music late 90s.

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Did you ever, was your timing ever

crossing with Rich Mullins when he

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was in Wichita or was he in Wichita

before, uh, you know, before you sort

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of got into the, got into the industry?

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Jennifer Knapp: Yeah, that

sounds familiar to me.

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Did he live there for a while?

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I think.

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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Yeah.

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He was in Wichita.

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Um, and then obviously I think in

the late nineties, right before

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he died, he was in New Mexico on

the reservation teaching music.

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I just didn't know.

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Jennifer Knapp: Yeah, I

never got to meet him.

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Um, you know, obviously, you know,

Nashville is the kind of the center

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of a lot of contemporary christian

recording artists So, I mean, I knew a

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lot of his friends and contemporaries

and in fact, there's a lot that I, I

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felt really fortunate when I first came

to Nashville, probably, you know, in

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the late nineties, um, there was this,

there's a sleepy little pub called,

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uh, Sherlock Holmes or Sherlock, just

Sherlock's, it was like this little

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Irish pub, it was like super dark and

they would sell serve haggis on St.

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Patrick's day and they had like the

best pint of Guinness you could find.

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Anywhere that they just poured the best

pint and I got to go hang out there

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with a bunch of folks And in fact, uh,

we'll talk about him later But Steve

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Hindalong who's producing this record

was one of the guys that I met kind of

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a long time back but that's all to say

is that there were a cohort of kind of

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just You know, people in the same vein

and spirit that worked a lot with Rich,

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but I never, I really, you know, I was

really sad when he passed because I

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never really got a chance to meet him.

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He seemed like kind of my kind of people

and I was really, you know, I was working

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so heavily at the time when I was there.

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It was really unfortunate that,

particularly as a young kid, I didn't

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really get to connect to some of

the people I thought were my people.

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And Rich was certainly one of them.

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Jason English (Host): Well, he was

the one that, you know, in his music,

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he talked a lot about Kansas, right?

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Uh, songs about, you know, uh, Calling

Out Your Name and, and other ones

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that, you know, he really embodied

and embraced living in, in Kansas.

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And, uh, so anyway, that reminded

me when we were talking about,

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you know, the beauty of Kansas,

I wanted to ask you about that.

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Uh, and then also, I think,

you know, like, you know, this

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podcast is inspired by Ted Lasso.

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So what a great representative

of the state of Kansas, right?

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How, how cool was that?

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Jennifer Knapp: I know we're having like

a Midwest resurgence in modern culture.

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It's great.

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You, me, and Ted Lasso, we're

bringing the Midwest to represent.

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Jason English (Host): I mean,

you know, he was kind of,

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Jennifer Knapp: you know, and I see,

as I'm looking, well as I'm looking at

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your video I notice you have an Ozzie

Smith who is the shortstop of the St.

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Louis Cardinals, and a Bo Jackson

who has played centerfield

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for the Kansas City Royals.

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We're in the heart of baseball season,

and I'm, you know, I'm seeing that.

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It's about 10 years on, but I, I deeply

enjoyed when, uh, the Kansas City

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Royals won the World Series in 2015,

so, you know, it's, at any time, and

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of course a Kansas City Chiefs fan as

well, so, it's, it's nice to see, you

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know, the times that we pop up with

Good Street Cred because, as you and

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I both well know, it's sometimes that,

that it's a forgotten kind of middle

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part of America that, that, that's

easy for people to drive through and

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just want to hurriedly kind of rush by.

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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Fly, fly over country no more.

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So, um, anyway,

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Jennifer Knapp: But yeah, Ted Lasso, like,

Ted Lasso represent, the only grievance

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I have, actually, with Ted Lasso, is

that he, my, and, and almost a character

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flaw, I will say, is his distaste for,

uh, hot tea, because I am, My partner's

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Australian, and I am also an Australian

citizen, which, you know, connects me

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to the Commonwealth, and a cup of tea.

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I don't start my day

without a good cup of tea.

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So his, you know, his assertion that

it's just brown, tasteless water is,

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you know, short sighted and does not

speak well of my Midwestern roots.

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I'm like, come on, mate, you don't even

know how great your life could be if you

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just sat back and enjoyed a cup of tea.

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But I am, I'm so envious that I can't

have one of his biscuits to go with my

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cup of tea, otherwise known as a cookie.

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Jason English (Host): right, right.

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Well, I think they put, they've

posted the recipe for that.

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And I've always wanted to, you

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Jennifer Knapp: Oh, did they?

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Jason English (Host): give that a

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Jennifer Knapp: into that.

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That's amazing.

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Jason English (Host): the recipe.

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Yeah.

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So, all right.

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Well, duly noted on the

T um, no one's perfect.

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Not even Ted Lasso.

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So that's good.

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Jennifer Knapp: Indeed,

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Jason English (Host): Well, Well, uh,

it's, you've been busy the last couple

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of months recording Kansas 25, right?

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So congratulations on that.

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And as at the time of this

conversation, we're about a week

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and a half from its release.

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Right?

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So that's obviously 25 years in

the making, you know, uh, since the

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original was, was produced, I guess.

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Um, for you, how did the process differ?

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Like the last month and a half, two

months from what, what, what you recalled

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having gone through, you know, in the late

nineties, uh, the first, the first time

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Jennifer Knapp: Yeah.

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Well, and for those who don't

know, I mean, I recor I recorded

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my very first record in 1998.

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Uh, like my first signed record.

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So, uh, I got signed with a

record label called Gotee, and

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they had literally plucked we've

been talking a lot about Kansas,

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that's the theme for today the day.

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They plucked me out of Kansas where I

was doing a lot of, you know, just kind

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of random church gigs in and around the

Midwest and, uh, recorded that record.

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In fact, it got its name because nobody

we know none of us really knew what to

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call it And I was just like this weird

kid that nobody Coming into Nashville

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who hadn't been to it you know, I thought

Nashville was a huge city at that point

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when I moved in it felt like you know,

really hitting hitting the big time

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and But yeah, Toby McKeon who of course

is TB uh, Toby Mac or T Mac from DC

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Talk fame, uh, owned the record label.

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We didn't know what to call the record

and he just ended up calling it Kansas

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because that's where I was from.

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He's just like, I don't know,

just, you're, you're Kansas.

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It's like, and it was evocative

to him of, of some place that he'd

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never been and didn't hang out

and wasn't really familiar to him.

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So that to him was, I think, the name

that kind of stuck on the record.

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Um, but 25, you know, so, and like,

you know, Toward the end of last year,

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which, you know, officially last year,

:

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record and a lot's happened in that time.

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I'm still, you know, creating

music, which is a wonderful thing.

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Um, the record's gone through a couple of

prints and, uh, But a lot of people have

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carried that record through the years,

you know I'm 50 at this point and a lot

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of the people who still love and adore

that record have gone through a lot You

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know you and I were talking pre broadcast

that you know, our lives have changed a

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lot since you know in that time We you

know, a lot of us have like grown up.

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We've gone gotten into middle age.

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We know who we are we've had

heartbreaks and successes and also

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questioned the meaning of life and

all the things in between and for

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whatever reason this record has

kind of stuck with the people who

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Grabbed a hold of it, I think, you know,

early on in their adulthood, and I think

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kind of got along board with the things

that I was going through at the time,

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just trying to, like, work my way through

as a songwriter, kind of thinking about

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who I wanted to be when I grew up, and

meaningfully, you know, in such a way.

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So, and yeah, so getting

back into recording, it was

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a celebration of, of that.

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And I think one of the things that I

wanted to accomplish was in going back was

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like, I wonder, like, I was just curious

artistically is like what, I still play

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some of these songs from time to time in

my live shows, but I was also like curious

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what they would sound like because I know

I play them different, but I never go

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back and I, I never go back and listen

to my own records or my own recordings.

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I'm, uh,

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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Jennifer Knapp: but, um, so I made

a rule that I wasn't going to listen

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to it, but I, I really, I originally

planned on just going into the studio

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and just putting up a microphone and

like plugging in my guitar and just

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playing the versions of the song live.

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And then I was talking to my friend,

Steve Hindelong, who produced the record.

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We started to kind of

dress it up a little bit.

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So it's still like.

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A pretty raw and live performance but

that was kind of one of the ideas is I

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just I wanted to kind of revisit those

Songs and see how they changed with me

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because I know I've changed personally

Um, but I also there's also a subplot to

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it as well Is it and for those, you know

unfamiliar with my history and trajectory

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I got my start in christian music You

know when I was in my 20s And you know,

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this is a christian record, but also

I came out later And married my wife.

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Uh, we've been together over 20 years

and when I did that that was a big

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controversy inside of faith communities

because you know, like the contest

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between conservative christians who who

genuinely do not uh, support LGBTQ plus

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people inside of their faith communities.

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Um, now granted there are a lot of

churches who do support LGBTQ people,

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but where I came from and a lot of the

audiences that had grown up listening

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to me, I probably, you know, pissed

off half of them and disappointed

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a lot of them because I was gay.

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And I think not only that,

you know, I mean, I, I don't

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think that's a unique thing.

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I think a lot of us through our life

experiences, when we have like real

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life experiences, And they don't

match this kind of pristine timeline

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that I think sometimes conservative

evangelicalism can represent, um,

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and my audience is no different.

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I mean, we've been married,

we've been divorced, we've had

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losses, we've buried children.

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We've decided whether or not we're

going to raise our children in a

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church and a thousand other things

in between, you know, we've, we've,

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you know, come up short on our

income taxes, a thousand things.

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And, We've been disappointing and we've

succeeded and in the middle of all

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that, you know I think for people who

are kind of somewhat understand what

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it's like to take on Uh ownership of

our spiritual selves as well as you

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know Just not just living life as a

machine and going through the day to

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day, you know Checking off the boxes.

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There was a part in going back to Kansas

that felt like being able to celebrate

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that was a little bit of rebellious

resistance to say, you know, you try

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and write us out of the church or the

narrative or say that, you know, if

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we're, if we kind of go off the beaten

path a little bit that That there's

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some way that we've somehow been a

failure and I don't think that's the

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case I think a lot of people have

carried the success of this and we've

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grown into really outstanding human

beings I mean i'm amazed by my audience.

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I mean so many people that come to

my shows are working in mental health

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are working in You know, in nonprofits

that are giving back to the world and,

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and not just that, I mean, most of

those people, even if, you know, I'm

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no truck drivers that are working,

you know, in truck driving, but

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they think about themselves as being

genuinely part of their community.

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They're extraordinarily rich

people that have held onto this

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record for one way or another.

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And by, you know, the simple idea that

we can write people off because You know,

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write out something that's been meaningful

to our communities, um, with something

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that was kind of a little fun subtext

to be able to go back and record this

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record, knowing that it represented that.

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It was a way of us, I think a lot of

us inside of this community and kind of

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having traveled that journey to be able

to celebrate that together, to be able to

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know that just because we've aged doesn't

mean that we can't still see the, you

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know, sing the songs of our youth and

celebrate that journey along the way.

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Jason English (Host): Right.

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No, that's great.

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Who do you think the audience is for

this, this one, this time around?

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Is it the same?

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Jennifer Knapp: Yeah, I mean there

are a lot of diehard fans out there.

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Um, You know, it's it's been really kind

of fun because you know I've been back

328

:

doing music now for about 15 years and I

still like there'll be some conservative

329

:

Evangelicals that hadn't heard about

me in a while will be familiar with

330

:

my name and this record will come up

and then they'll see Me and they'll

331

:

go oh wrong room So that'll be fun.

332

:

But you know, I think there are a

lot of There'll be a lot of, you

333

:

know, and I'm picking up some new

singer songwriter fans along the way.

334

:

You know, you and I were talking before

that, you know, I grew up listening

335

:

to Tracy Chapman and Sean Colvin

and Lisa Loeb and the Cowboy Junkies

336

:

and, you know, the Indigo Girls.

337

:

And a lot of those audiences I've been

playing in and around for a while.

338

:

So, um, for those who aren't afraid

and have figured out that I'm not a

339

:

terrifying, you know, like Christian

trying to, you know, You know, woo them

340

:

over to some holy, you know, sanctuary

kind of place, um, for those kind of,

341

:

I've, you know, I've picked up some

new fans along the way that aren't

342

:

necessarily invested in the Christian

side of it, but, you know, I think for

343

:

the most part, you know, I'll be happy

if we find the people who know and love

344

:

this record, you know, have a copy of

it to be able to celebrate that journey.

345

:

I wasn't really expecting it or

treating this record like it's

346

:

some, you know, new amazing release.

347

:

that, that needs to be, you know,

pushed to and make, and make new fans.

348

:

It's mostly been made for the old fans

and updated for our contemporary ears.

349

:

And, and, uh, that's so far the people

that have been able to, we've, we've

350

:

probably been playing it for about two

or three, I think maybe a couple of weeks

351

:

ago, we had, uh, some downloads available.

352

:

So the insiders that were helping

us get this project off the

353

:

ground and free those, those fans.

354

:

with like crowdsourcing campaigns like

Kickstarter, you know, it was largely

355

:

funded by just a, you know, a few

hundred people, this few hundred people,

356

:

um, we're already listening to it and

they're just blown away by the project.

357

:

I mean, it's, it's been, you know, it's

one thing to kind of have an idea about

358

:

what you hope it will accomplish in terms

of, especially when you use like the,

359

:

these songs have been around forever, but.

360

:

forever and everybody's familiar with

them, but you kind of like hope that

361

:

when you play them and that they'll look

different and they'll feel different

362

:

and represent you in the here and now.

363

:

Um, I can never really, you know,

you can't really guarantee that

364

:

you just kind of do it and hope

that it does because, you know,

365

:

it's being played in older bodies.

366

:

And I mean, I don't think anybody

under the age of 50 played on this

367

:

record, which was pretty cool.

368

:

We're all pretty old

and wise and doing it.

369

:

But, um, yeah, it's, it's been really

nice to see that, you know, the, the.

370

:

The people it was intended to be a gift

for have been there to receive it and I, I

371

:

hope along the way, you know, I, I suspect

along the way some, some new people will

372

:

find it and they, they might be a little

bit confused, I think, because it's not

373

:

like I'm working a Christian music career

at this point, you know, but, um, at

374

:

the same time, I think that's part of,

you know, I think that's an interesting,

375

:

it's an interesting topic to kind of get

into because I've debated about it for a

376

:

long time, like how much do I talk about

faith or spirituality when what I want

377

:

to do is go out and kind of live a quote

unquote normal life, you know, as opposed

378

:

to, you know, having a career where I'm.

379

:

you know, working in ministry

or something like that.

380

:

It doesn't mean that I don't have a

service, but for musicians in particular,

381

:

especially coming out of contemporary

Christian music, where they, people

382

:

somewhat anticipate if you write that

way and you're interested in things

383

:

like that, that you're also on a mission

to convert people to where you are.

384

:

And that's not necessarily the case.

385

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

386

:

No, that's good.

387

:

I like how you put that.

388

:

It's almost, if I could summarize,

it's almost like you're, it's like a

389

:

thank you, you know, to the kind of

your OG sort of fan club and crew.

390

:

Right.

391

:

And it's sort of a tribute.

392

:

Yeah.

393

:

It's, it's, it's, and it's sort of

a tribute to that time where you

394

:

came on really strong, really fast.

395

:

And this album was different

than everything else at the time.

396

:

And so that's some, there's a symbol

there that you want to pay tribute to.

397

:

And then I, I love how the fact

that like in the last 25 years.

398

:

So much has changed in the world

with you personally, with all of us

399

:

that are in the, in this demographic.

400

:

And, uh, so it's sort of an

acknowledgement of that, that in

401

:

everything kind of comes back around,

you know, in the, in the songs, I

402

:

think no matter where you are, you're

at in your faith and kind of on the

403

:

spectrum of Christianity, they still

resonate, you know, and, uh, cause

404

:

they, you know, to me it's like an

album of prayers and Psalms, you know?

405

:

Jennifer Knapp: Yeah, and

406

:

Jason English (Host): relevant.

407

:

I like

408

:

Jennifer Knapp: how I originally wrote

a lot of them you know, I was just

409

:

like I was a kid and you know as a

young adult in college and and Started

410

:

hanging out with my church and a lot

of my friends were like, well, why

411

:

don't you why don't you write about?

412

:

What this is experience is like for you

And so a lot of a lot of the songs on

413

:

this record weren't Weren't made to be

on the radio, weren't made to woo anyone.

414

:

They were just basically kind of

like prayers and journal entries and

415

:

me kind of sorting out, you know, I

like, I, I mean, I grew, I grew up in

416

:

the Midwest, like there's a church on

every corner and at the same time I

417

:

wouldn't describe my family particularly

as religious, just God's around.

418

:

It's just a kind of a thing and it's, it's

part of culture, but not necessarily You

419

:

know, I didn't have a lot of exposure who,

to people, you know, outside of your, you

420

:

know, pastors, that was their life's work.

421

:

But the rest of us, you know, 99.

422

:

9 percent of us in the, that ever went

to church or were inside of church,

423

:

you know, there were there because

we were I don't know, like, it was,

424

:

we were engaging in our worlds and

reaching out to something greater than

425

:

ourselves and having that kind of faith

and spiritual support and community.

426

:

That was familiar to me, but when I

started, you know, as a young college

427

:

student hanging out with a lot of the

evangelicals, it was, like, I thought

428

:

I knew the church and I did not.

429

:

Like, it was a culture shift, it was all

of a sudden, like, you're living in sin

430

:

kind of conversations, or, you know, you

have to put away these temptations, and

431

:

there were like a lot of do's and a lot of

don'ts, and it was really hard for me to

432

:

process and get my head around why all of

a sudden one day I was good in the eyes of

433

:

people that I was at, you know, going to

church with, and then the next that made

434

:

them, you know, question whether or not

I was genuinely serious about my prayers

435

:

and, and my reaching out to connect

to, to my spiritual maker, I guess.

436

:

And so I think a lot of those, a lot of

that consternation actually built and

437

:

like nowadays, like there's this kind

of movement called the deconstruction

438

:

movement, which is kind of around

centered around a lot, especially a

439

:

lot of us who came through the nineties

and the early two thousands kind of

440

:

very familiar with evangelicalism.

441

:

Evangelical Christianity and a lot of the

marketing that made Christianity cool for

442

:

a while, you know, a lot of cool music

You didn't have to wear pantyhose going

443

:

to church anymore You know the rise of the

mega church and and even to some degree

444

:

like it was like okay to be a Christian It

wasn't it didn't seem like such an anomaly

445

:

there for a while Um, and, you know, youth

groups were like, there were big youth

446

:

conferences in the tens of thousands of

which, you know, we are all products of in

447

:

some way, like, and I was part of that as

a, as a musician inside of that culture.

448

:

Well, we grew up and now we're thinking

for ourselves and like I said, we have

449

:

some real life scenarios with which our

spirituality and the way that we kind of

450

:

process our decision making paradigms and,

and trying to figure out who we want to

451

:

be as, As human beings like morally in

this world and ethically in this world

452

:

religion has a really great tradition of

being able to help us navigate through

453

:

that but You know when we are busting

the system and not participating with

454

:

the religion and upholding the religion

As opposed to having a life where we're

455

:

actually seeking to have deeply meaningful

lives Um, I was kind of working 20s and

456

:

before I knew it I was about 15 or 20

years ahead of the deconstruction curve,

457

:

which we're kind of experiencing now So,

uh, it is kind of a weird thing about this

458

:

record that is bizarre how it's kind of

stood the test of time in that regard.

459

:

But I, I, I, I digress in saying

that it goes back, to me, I own it.

460

:

I, I claim it in the space that these

were, these weren't made or, you

461

:

know, none of these songs were made or

manufactured trying to represent myself

462

:

or trying to be likable or pleasing to

a Christian environment or even to God.

463

:

They were just genuine.

464

:

and innocent prayers that no one had to

witness that I, you know, for whatever

465

:

reason decided to bring out of my little

college bedroom and, you know, I initially

466

:

played for my church and my friend, you

know, for my friends and then my church

467

:

and then before I know it, I'm in Chicago

and before I know it, I've signed a

468

:

record deal and before I know it, it's 30

years later and, you know, those prayers

469

:

are a moment in time of a kid who was

genuinely seeking to try and make sense.

470

:

something that hit me in the heart,

but didn't always make sense to me

471

:

in the day to day practical stuff.

472

:

And I think that's where a lot of folks

are, you know, deciding, you know, whether

473

:

or not we're going to raise our kids

that way, or if we're going to go back

474

:

to church or what, you know, how are we

going to connect with other people about

475

:

the things that we want to and need to

spiritually, but don't necessarily want

476

:

to get wrapped up into having to be a

poster child or a, uh, You know, we're not

477

:

necessarily looking to join a group, but

we're looking to connect to other people

478

:

and and and be involved and engaged Um,

so I think that's something i've been

479

:

working on for the last 30 years and I

think that's part of the interesting part

480

:

of Reclaiming this record and going back

and even when I judge it or there are

481

:

some songs that I went to perform that

Like ah, man, I can't believe I wrote that

482

:

I would like so drank the kool aid but

Also inside of that was an earnestness

483

:

to just go, I'm really in that space now.

484

:

I might not say it the same way.

485

:

I may not like necessarily, you

know, raise my hand and say,

486

:

Oh Lord, please deliver me.

487

:

But I genuinely earnestly might,

or you know, I do the hard work in

488

:

my personal life to kind of, to, to

shape and continue to be involved

489

:

in my own person and, and, and.

490

:

And who I am in the world and how I want

to be a positive and a loving human being

491

:

in the world and My faith tradition can

teach me a lot about that but I also

492

:

know that my I offend my faith tradition

equally as well when I bucket because

493

:

Sometimes I have to learn things and go

out and and my advocacy and lgbtq plus

494

:

stuff um and going and talking to churches

and and talking about how meaningful that

495

:

is to the lgbtq plus community has been

one of those things where I never saw

496

:

myself and didn't really imagine You Kind

of entering back into but I think the

497

:

songs have been really interesting and

kind of keeping me connected at times when

498

:

I've Genuinely tried to get unconnected.

499

:

Jason English (Host): No, that's cool.

500

:

And you touched on it, but I do want

to ask you, and I think I've, I think

501

:

I was tracking, um, cause Knowing your

journey in the last 25 years, going

502

:

back and the fact that like you came

into your faith in college, you know,

503

:

not late, but like a lot of, so I, you

know, I grew up in, in Missouri, buckle

504

:

the Bible belt, was in the church,

was in church all the time growing up.

505

:

Like it's, it's, it's

basically my childhood.

506

:

And there's a lot of us

that experienced that.

507

:

You were a little bit later.

508

:

But once you became a Christian, it feels

like the, the depth of your lyrics on

509

:

this album that you're now re releasing

and re in, in doing over, it's like you

510

:

were in church and had faith since you

were 18 months old, you know, like that's

511

:

what's crazy about this album is it

might as well, I'm not going to compare

512

:

it to like the book of Psalms, right.

513

:

With David, but like the,

the, the words, the melodies.

514

:

It's almost like, you know, when you,

when you fall in love and I'm not really,

515

:

I'm not a songwriter, but I can imagine

like if I fell in love, all the emotions

516

:

and the feelings that I would want to put

down on paper, it's almost like you took

517

:

a newfound faith and dumped it all in your

journaling and in your songwriting because

518

:

it's so in depth and it's so unique.

519

:

Uh, and that's, and that's, that's

the picture I have in my head.

520

:

Is that somewhat accurate?

521

:

I think you touched on it, right?

522

:

Jennifer Knapp: hmm.

523

:

Well, it's a certain.

524

:

It's certainly a great compliment.

525

:

I appreciate that You know, I I think

I think back to those times and I

526

:

mean I was diving into the Bible a

lot I mean one of the things that you

527

:

know when you're new to the church

and and I took my disciple, I'll use

528

:

the D word, discipleship seriously.

529

:

I mean, I really, I felt definitely

behind the curve for all my other

530

:

friends who had grown up in the

church or had families who were, had

531

:

long, deep histories of, you know,

going to church, you know, every day.

532

:

Three or four days a week.

533

:

Um, I didn't know anything about the

Bible and you know, I became, you

534

:

know, I, I, I read the, the Bible with

a lot of adoration and I still do.

535

:

I think it's an amazing text and, you

know, when, and I, but I did what I

536

:

was told and I actually read it and I

studied it, and it was a profoundly,

537

:

you know, and I think, you know, there's

a, a lot of amazing wisdom in there

538

:

and there's also a lot of wacky stuff.

539

:

Um, but it, you know, I, you know.

540

:

I'm not a biblical literalist by any

means, but I think, you know, with

541

:

all the controversy, you know, I

think it's one of the critiques that

542

:

I have about people's misunderstanding

about what to do with the Bible.

543

:

I mean, it's an incredible

witness to what deep thinking and

544

:

what a spiritual life is like.

545

:

It's a collection of all the people

who have been doing this for thousands

546

:

of years, and then one day we just

stopped kind of collecting it.

547

:

Well, I was reading a ton

of Psalms during that time.

548

:

I was trying to understand.

549

:

Stan, the big picture, not just a

scripture at a time, but like, what

550

:

is the whole, you know, what does this

whole chapter, you know, what does this

551

:

whole chapter mean in light of this verse

and then spreading it out from there?

552

:

What does this book mean?

553

:

What does this whole Bible mean?

554

:

What does this whole century mean?

555

:

What does this mean and

what connects me to it now?

556

:

And as bizarre as it was, I mean, I

really got in depth and I loved it to

557

:

the ends, you know, to the ends that

it's actually one of the things that.

558

:

It's not necessarily the Bible that's kept

me in it, but the intrigue about theology

559

:

and the way that, that God may or may not

be, or whatever God is, um, and connecting

560

:

to that, um, led me, you know, some years

later to have the opportunity to go back

561

:

and get my master's degree in theology.

562

:

So, um, I didn't realize that what

I'd started all those years ago

563

:

was like a really intense, academic

and, and deep dive into not just

564

:

the surface of saying, Oh, you know,

Jesus saves or something like that.

565

:

But to kind of really actually understand

something deep, what we mean when we

566

:

talk about something that's actually

redemptive, or when we talk about

567

:

liberation, or not, you know, I still

think of the work that I do is I hope

568

:

genuinely that everywhere I go that

people feel a deep sense of their

569

:

worth, and their dignity and a sense of.

570

:

You know, the depth of what love can

mean to them and what, what can be done

571

:

when we are giving the depths of our

love to somebody else and what it means

572

:

to be graceful and what it, what it

means to be free of shame and all of the

573

:

things that kind of hold us back when

we're angry or frustrated that, that

574

:

inhibit love from being able to happen.

575

:

I think these things are readily

available and understanding that

576

:

and that's what blew my mind.

577

:

actually, when I started to get into

this space, and it's still what attracts

578

:

me to it, even though it's this weird

kind of, you know, it has this weird

579

:

relationship with institutionalization

and authority and the justification

580

:

of what somebody, you know, allows,

you know, decides who they're going

581

:

to love and how they're going to love.

582

:

And I mean, I was sitting there like

early on in my days getting into doing

583

:

exactly what people told me to do,

which is read the Bible, and I did,

584

:

and I got there, and I'm like, wow.

585

:

What you guys are doing is totally

different than what's in here.

586

:

Like, is kind of weird.

587

:

So that was, you know, that was the way

that I write it, but it clearly profoundly

588

:

shaped my life and I've had to kind of

deal with the honesty that it has and

589

:

even to this day kind of go, I don't know.

590

:

Am I a Christian?

591

:

Do I want to be a Christian?

592

:

And I kind of care less about that.

593

:

But what I'm really grateful for is every

time that I've found another human being

594

:

on the planet who understands even just a

little bit about love, a little bit about

595

:

being a person in the world who, you know,

is interested in finding the, the glory

596

:

and the beauty of the most unsuspecting

unsuspecting people and their liberation.

597

:

They literally want to see them succeed

because you want to see them fly.

598

:

You know, there's nothing more amazing

than loving somebody and then setting them

599

:

free to be and wanting them to succeed

and being there when it doesn't work out.

600

:

But you know, all of that kind of stuff

wrapped up into it was all of this kind

601

:

of culture clash that was, Oh, wow all

that was in that little discipleship

602

:

kind of space that I took on and which

I think makes that book the Bible pretty

603

:

extraordinary if you read it, but you have

to read it and you have to kind of see it

604

:

for the wider picture and see that it's

It's extraordinary that you can kind of

605

:

look around and see a lot of, you know,

we haven't changed too much, I don't

606

:

think, as human beings in the centuries

since a lot of that stuff was written.

607

:

We all want to be loved, we struggle with

power, you know, we want to be perceived,

608

:

we want to win, we want to be loved, we

want to connect, we don't want to have

609

:

to work too hard to get what we want.

610

:

Jason English (Host): Right.

611

:

Jennifer Knapp: It's all in there.

612

:

It's pretty amazing.

613

:

So I just, I feel like all I've ever

done as a songwriter is kind of just

614

:

riff off, you know, riff off those themes

and, and, and try and, you know, read

615

:

something of other people or when you

connect with other people with something

616

:

about your experience, where you know

the emotion to be able to write out what

617

:

that emotion is and spend time with that.

618

:

And that's what I love

putting into my work.

619

:

And you know, it, it was,

it had that form in Kansas.

620

:

It's 25.

621

:

It has a very religious overtone and now

I still think it's present in my work

622

:

today even though I've kind of exercised,

uh, certain vocabulary restraints so I

623

:

don't go there and kind of use religious

language to express the same things.

624

:

A

625

:

Jason English (Host): Well, no.

626

:

And again, I'll say it again.

627

:

The depth of the songwriting at the time

and sort of your maturity or immaturity

628

:

as a Christian is, is, is ridiculous.

629

:

And I don't want to make it awkward

for you, but I want to read.

630

:

A few of the lyrics from, uh, Martyrs

and Thieves, if you don't mind, just

631

:

the verse, like a couple of the verses.

632

:

Jennifer Knapp: classic.

633

:

It is,

634

:

Jason English (Host):

This is, it's so good.

635

:

And I would love the background

on this, if it's different than

636

:

what you've already described.

637

:

But I, for the people that are listening

that may not know, kind of the,

638

:

you know, what we're talking about.

639

:

I think in this, these are words that

a Christian that's been a Christian

640

:

for 80 years, probably doesn't have

the maturity and the wherewithal

641

:

to put on paper like you did.

642

:

As a 20 something new believer, right?

643

:

So I just want to kind of call that out.

644

:

And then I have a follow up

question about some of this.

645

:

But, um, so the first verse, There's a

place in the darkness that I used to cling

646

:

to that presses harsh hope against time.

647

:

In the absence of martyrs,

there's a presence of thieves.

648

:

Who only want to rob you blind.

649

:

They steal away any sense of peace.

650

:

Though I'm a king, I'm a king on my knees.

651

:

And I know they are wrong

when they say I am strong.

652

:

As the darkness covers me.

653

:

That's not bad.

654

:

This is what I love though.

655

:

And it goes into a chorus.

656

:

I'm not gonna like read that.

657

:

The next verse.

658

:

There are ghosts from my past

who've owned more of my soul

659

:

than I thought I had given away.

660

:

They linger in closets and under my bed.

661

:

And in pictures, less proudly displayed.

662

:

A great fool of my life I have been, have

squandered till pallid and thin, hung my

663

:

head in shame, and refuse to take blame,

for the darkness I know I've let win.

664

:

I mean, come on.

665

:

that's some good shit right there.

666

:

Right?

667

:

Uh, so like, I guess.

668

:

Jennifer Knapp: young girl she was.

669

:

Jason English (Host): I mean, really,

like, uh, so, you know, well, there's

670

:

a lot of questions there, but, um,

yeah, the ghost from my past who

671

:

I've, who've owned more of my soul.

672

:

I mean, at the time, right, all the coming

out, all those things hadn't happened yet.

673

:

And I don't even know if like you

realize that you, you may be a, you

674

:

know, maybe a lesbian or not at the

time, but like the ghost, what were

675

:

some of those ghosts for you when you

were writing that at 22 or 20, 21 years

676

:

Jennifer Knapp: I mean the

the the shorthand version.

677

:

I was like a well, I had a good knowledge

of sex sex drugs and alcohol, you know,

678

:

which you know, it's pretty much part

and parcel for most people's college

679

:

experience, but with my conservative

Christian friends that I was the Like if,

680

:

like the fact that I quote unquote got

saved was a miracle to, you know, more

681

:

than a dozen people on my college campus.

682

:

Like they were like, this girl

has like, you know, lived.

683

:

And so it, you know, one of those

kinds of things where, um, And I

684

:

think about like particularly that

second verse that goes for my past.

685

:

I mean there was this weird thing

where Everyone was saying, you know,

686

:

you have to get right with god because

you're living this life of sin.

687

:

I was like, okay I'm, not sure it would

go that way, but I didn't know As I was

688

:

kind of becoming an adult and knowing that

there were certain kind of behaviors that

689

:

I was, I was literally abusing myself.

690

:

I mean, I was really not in a good

place when I came to Christianity.

691

:

I was waking up in places that I didn't

know where, how I'd gotten there and a

692

:

variety of poor life choices that, aside

from the moral part, were just unsafe.

693

:

And I didn't understand why I was.

694

:

Treating myself so poorly and I didn't

really understand, you know, I didn't

695

:

understand it But I didn't necessarily

judge it in the same way that the church

696

:

was judging it I just knew that I was

looking for some kind of peace and

697

:

order in my own life and to Understand

something about my own self worth that

698

:

I truly wasn't respecting myself or any

other human body that was around me And

699

:

so like kind of the quintessential moment

I think most people are familiar with

700

:

like the altar call moment right where

it's like Come down to the altar call

701

:

because you are the sinners, you know,

and you can name, you know, all of us

702

:

can name something of which we would like

to confess or wish that, you know, to

703

:

varying degrees of shame or, you know,

admission that, that we could do better.

704

:

And here this altar call would happen

every week and this expectation that

705

:

I wouldn't look like this person, you

know, that they wanted to conform out.

706

:

And like, even like ideas,

I'm like, no, no, no, I don't

707

:

want to get into a language.

708

:

You're not going to.

709

:

Slut shame me coming into church just

because I have, you know, I've slept

710

:

with people before I got married.

711

:

That's not the problem.

712

:

The problem is that I didn't respect

myself or the other people, you

713

:

know, in marriage or out of marriage.

714

:

It's not the point.

715

:

Like I was lost not because I had

sex out of marriage, but because I

716

:

was abusing myself and other people.

717

:

And this was a distinction that I was, you

know, Like, you know, I was like, I just

718

:

I didn't grow up with the Kool Aid So the

Kool Aid of shaming me into submission

719

:

wasn't something that worked and the

poetry that came out of that Was trying

720

:

to reconcile that trying to reconcile

am I am I really contesting something?

721

:

Like I didn't feel necessarily comfortable

with it Like all the church people are

722

:

going it's all I'd ever heard or good

people Are people were going to get

723

:

married as virgins and I'd kind of screwed

that up already like a couple years ago

724

:

So what did I do with the shame of that?

725

:

Because I have a community of people

that were shaming me about it.

726

:

It's like, stop shaming me.

727

:

Like, that's not the point.

728

:

And so I think a lot of that

showed, showed up in my work.

729

:

Like I'm going into this place and

everyone's reminding me of this past

730

:

that I have that is marking me as

so different because I'm suspicious.

731

:

I'm suspicious because I have

knowledge of other people.

732

:

I'm suspicious because you know Somebody

would try and teach me something and

733

:

I would say well, I hear where you're

coming from But more than just saying

734

:

Jesus doesn't want me to have sex.

735

:

Can you say something?

736

:

That's actually a little bit more

useful to me Then just shaming me

737

:

because that's shameful and why I came

here was to get out of shame and there

738

:

was something here That was alluring

to me that told me and gave me some

739

:

not have to live in shame anymore.

740

:

So I was looking for those

things and real nuggets of that.

741

:

And I, I think, you know,

by some great accident, the

742

:

poetry is a reflection of that.

743

:

I mean, I was just really laboring

hard to, you To find something that

744

:

was actually true and meaningful and

something that would last a lifetime

745

:

and not just something that would Get

me through this next week or or make me

746

:

pleasing in the eyes of you know, my past

or something like that I mean, I really

747

:

I wanted, I really wanted more from

my faith in that, in that experience.

748

:

And so that's what I think about.

749

:

And that's what I, you know, I listen to

martyrs and thieves and that's what I see.

750

:

Like I see that contest all over and I'm,

I'm shocked to know that like I made it,

751

:

you know, that, that, that, that was a

labor that I, I genuinely appreciate.

752

:

And I think it stood the test of time.

753

:

I, I, and I think that's something of the

critique that we should listen to, right?

754

:

When there's a reason why, when we see a

billboard that says, you know, God listens

755

:

that we somewhat cringe because it seems

so So, you know so on the surface and so

756

:

literal that it doesn't take the time to

look you in the eye Hold your hand when

757

:

you really need somebody to connect with

you and and be there For you and with

758

:

you and to help you and be alongside

you um, I think there's no replacement

759

:

for that and I just I just won't settle

for anything less in my writing either.

760

:

So

761

:

Jason English (Host): I mean, it's

beautiful like that, that will

762

:

stand the test of time, uh, that

in the, in the album for sure.

763

:

Um, but just real quick, I think

what's interesting is if it wasn't

764

:

for Christians, I think there'd

be more Christians, you know?

765

:

So like,

766

:

Jennifer Knapp: a, that's like Gandhi

said, it's not Christianity I have

767

:

a problem with, it's the Christians.

768

:

Jason English (Host): yeah.

769

:

Cause like, you know, again, the promise

of the gospel, at least my recollection

770

:

is, You're, everything's wiped clean,

you know, you're, you're a new creation,

771

:

you know, all the things, right?

772

:

But the, but Christians tend to focus on

the, you know, the behavior, the works,

773

:

the, the activities, you know, and And

it's like they're, they're, they're

774

:

so anti christian and, and again how

they've treated the gay community, right?

775

:

It's like so un christ like.

776

:

Uh, which I'm going to get to, I, there's

a, there's something I'm going to kind of

777

:

reference in a few minutes, uh, related

to one of your band members, uh, when

778

:

he posted a couple, uh, a couple of days

ago, but yeah, they're so un Christlike,

779

:

it's like, if they'd be more Christlike,

I think the church would be thriving,

780

:

but there's this, this crazy tension in

this crazy conflict when people look at

781

:

the people that are followers and they,

it doesn't add up to what, you know, we,

782

:

we see when we read the Bible, you know?

783

:

Jennifer Knapp: Yeah, it's a pretty

devastating experience for somebody

784

:

to say that they love you and then for

you to get there and go, I love you if,

785

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah, exactly.

786

:

Jennifer Knapp: it's, it's a, yeah,

it's a pretty shocking exchange

787

:

whether that's, you know, and the, the

curiosity to me about, about that is,

788

:

and it's not just a religious thing.

789

:

I mean, I think we know that in real life

if you just stop and take a second of

790

:

like what it's like For for somebody that

you know and that you've known for a long

791

:

time and that you turn to them and say

hey Will you be with me now and they go?

792

:

Yeah, I'll be with you if you know,

like it's devastating on a human level

793

:

so Like, whether I, you know, one of

the things I talk about a lot is like,

794

:

whether or not you believe in God,

you, you know what it means if somebody

795

:

says, God doesn't love you like that.

796

:

Like, you can be a flat out atheist.

797

:

It's still an ultimate insult to

be able to say, you are unlovable.

798

:

I, I'm not going to, you know,

God won't take the effort.

799

:

So why should I?

800

:

And that's, you know, I just, to me,

that's like the greatest, like it's,

801

:

yeah, it just doesn't make any sense.

802

:

It doesn't regardless, you know despite

religion like I just don't want to be

803

:

that kind of human being in the world

and I Don't you know to borrow one of the

804

:

phrases of one of my friends like she just

asked the basic question Is that is that?

805

:

For the gospel saying that

it's good news, right?

806

:

Is that actually good news?

807

:

Is anything in here happening?

808

:

That's good news Like because that

doesn't seem like that's good news that

809

:

never will qualify as good news to that.

810

:

It's conditional so some some part of

that story is about what it is about, you

811

:

know, right the conditionality of love and

it's a pretty Extraordinary and miraculous

812

:

thing to be able to get beyond The

expectations of what people can achieve

813

:

and just loving people as they come.

814

:

Jason English (Host): the ghosts that

were referenced, I know that you talked

815

:

about like, you know, sex, drugs, alcohol.

816

:

Uh, I think in your, you know,

the book that you wrote, a lot of

817

:

attention was paid to like, Oh, she's

written a book about coming out.

818

:

But the lion's share of that book was

actually about, uh, your childhood

819

:

and the impact of like divorce, right.

820

:

That of your parents and stuff.

821

:

Is that, is that part of the

ghosts that you're talking about?

822

:

Yeah.

823

:

Jennifer Knapp: Yeah, I mean the the

funny thing, you know, like well when

824

:

I went to sit down and write the book

a lot of people were like And as often

825

:

happens with notable people, um, who

come out, like, Oh, let's tell your

826

:

coming out story and, you know, expecting

this confessional book about gayness.

827

:

And I wasn't really interested in that.

828

:

Like, always, I'm kind of more

interested in the long story.

829

:

Because, like, but still in the back

of my mind, one of the reasons why I

830

:

sat down to write that book is the,

the, one of the consistent questions

831

:

when I was going through the coming out

phase and going through all like the

832

:

the slings and arrows and running the

gauntlet of hatred and breaking You know

833

:

being considered a rebel and being a

disappointment to the church Like I wanted

834

:

to answer the question Why are you so

resilient or how are you able to do this?

835

:

And the reason why I was able to do that

because I wanted to show the picture that

836

:

this is a lot a long journey We were all

making We are all making a journey and

837

:

all we're all trying to figure out how

to navigate the experiences that we've

838

:

had To be healthy to be you know to go

through disappointments or struggles So

839

:

by the time I get to my you know, so I

did the timeline in such a way It was like

840

:

by the time I get to lgbtq stuff I hope

what people saw was like this is just yet

841

:

and one and another This is nothing, you

know, this is one in another long of line

842

:

of things that I would feel like to some

degree I was finally prepared for and You

843

:

know that I knew that that no matter how

hard or difficult this was to try and have

844

:

me understood to the rest of the world

That I've been doing the work of making

845

:

sure that I am the human being that I

need to be regardless of the circumstances

846

:

So, you know, I just I don't feel like

it, you know It's not that I want to like

847

:

lambast anybody's Coming out story, but

I just, for me, in telling that story,

848

:

it's often the wider picture or the macro

journey that that intrigues me more.

849

:

And not just like a nitty gritty

story of how I realized I was gay.

850

:

I mean, that story is really short.

851

:

I met somebody, they're

really intriguing to me.

852

:

I.

853

:

You know, she went to leave me for the

first time and I like started chasing

854

:

her down the street, like don't go away

and it's 20 years later and I've still

855

:

got that woman like chained to my ankle

because I just don't, you know, life is

856

:

beautiful with her in it, but I didn't

sit there and go through like this kind

857

:

of narrative that kind of feels I'm always

really interested in the wider picture.

858

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah,

yeah, no, that's cool.

859

:

And I think, not to like, oversimplify

the, all the hard part that was part

860

:

of the book, right, but I think, you

know, one of your conclusions I think

861

:

was, you know, you were young, uh,

There's a lot of impact, a lot of

862

:

negative impact of the decision that

your parents made to get divorced, right?

863

:

Like it destabilized a lot

of things, which I totally, I

864

:

totally understand and respect.

865

:

I guess having grown up in the church, you

know, divorce was never an option, right?

866

:

Like never an option.

867

:

And so like, I, I look

at the topic of divorce.

868

:

I'm not saying it's different, but

it's a different perspective, because

869

:

I think there's a lot of miserable

Christian believers that are married

870

:

that they should be divorced, you

know, and, and I know that it has

871

:

an adverse impact, you know, it

has an adverse impact on everybody.

872

:

Right.

873

:

But

874

:

Jennifer Knapp: No, good, yeah, good

relationships are hard to maintain, yeah.

875

:

They can be healthy bound and

they can be, you know, they

876

:

can be just as healthy unbound.

877

:

Um, yeah.

878

:

But yeah, I think that's, you know,

like, the funny thing is, is like

879

:

the weird, although like my mother

and father were divorced, I still

880

:

actually grew up in one household.

881

:

Like my, like the, like the household

I grew up, my dad and his wife

882

:

were the only family really I'd

ever known in that nuclear sense.

883

:

Like I came home every day,

it was the same family the

884

:

entire time that I lived there.

885

:

So it's, but it, I think even more than

divorce, what I would say is like, To

886

:

me, it's like dealing with the fractured

nature of who we are and who we can be,

887

:

and shining a light on, you know, I hate

saying it, I kind of roll my eyes when I

888

:

do, but hurt people hurt people, and if

you can, you know, walking through and

889

:

any of us having to navigate these, like,

that's where I'm kind of agreeing with

890

:

you, like, we can be bound or living in

the same household, hurt people continue,

891

:

you know, are we going to be as an

individual in that scenario, whatever our

892

:

position is, are we going to be people

who continue to perpetuate that harm.

893

:

Are we going to try and do the best to

heal ourselves through whether it's a

894

:

minor, you know, whether it's a minor

injury or a major trauma, that's the

895

:

challenge of our human nature and our

work, which, you know, intrigues me, but

896

:

is, you know, I think it's, it's really

easy to go, Oh, my parents were divorced.

897

:

So this is why I'm screwed up.

898

:

Or, Oh, my parents were married

forever, but they were nuts and

899

:

should have gotten divorced.

900

:

Or they did get divorced and didn't do

it well, or whatever the scenario is.

901

:

We're all gonna, like, for me, it's not

like A bad situation is a bad situation,

902

:

and how we get, you know, whatever that

is, it's not necessarily where we are

903

:

situated, but how we live that, that,

how we navigate that, that situation

904

:

is, is really what determines what our

character will be, what the impacts that

905

:

we have on others, and, you know, when

we do negatively impact other people,

906

:

what willingness that we are willing to

take in that space to be able to heal.

907

:

Um, and it takes a lot of energy

and effort to kind of be in a

908

:

mindful living and, you know, I'll

circle back around to Ted Lasso.

909

:

I mean, Ted Lasso's not a saint, you

know, he lost his shit on a number of

910

:

occasion, but I think one of the things

that people especially appreciate the

911

:

timeliness of that, that writing and

that script and those characters is

912

:

there was a redemptive quality in all of

those And there was always an open door.

913

:

Even if somebody pissed you off or

really hurt you, there was, you know,

914

:

some kind of encouragement inside the

bulk of that series that was trying

915

:

to say, listen, we can do better.

916

:

We can aspire to do better.

917

:

And that's sometimes the best that we

can do, but it's, it's the heart that

918

:

is so meaningful if you're willing

to give yourself unto that journey.

919

:

And I've admired that in any shape,

you know, it doesn't have to be

920

:

in the Bible for me to find it.

921

:

I can find it in some unnamed

people that you'll never know.

922

:

And I found it, you know, I found it

in some of the characters that are

923

:

in my book, you know, some of the

people along the way, and And even in

924

:

the the flawed human beings of which

I am one that are in my own story.

925

:

So,

926

:

Jason English (Host): No, that's great.

927

:

That's great.

928

:

So back to the new album, I guess,

was there a song that when you were

929

:

recording this time around hit different

for you, given given the last 25 years?

930

:

Jennifer Knapp: uh No, I

mean for the most part.

931

:

I mean the the songs that I've The songs

that like martyrs and thieves is a song

932

:

that i've played for a long time It's

just a part of my dna that song uh And

933

:

whole again is another one like the

the songs that I regularly play Like

934

:

those are two that I probably will pull

out And never not play at some point.

935

:

Um, they just feel really native to me.

936

:

And then there are some that I just have

forgotten about that, um, that I don't

937

:

really play that much, but there were,

there weren't too many experiences where

938

:

I was just like, whoa, I mean, there was

a debate that I had about whether or not

939

:

I was going to include the song refine me.

940

:

It's a ballad that's on the record

and, uh, I didn't actually write it.

941

:

Um, so it was the one song on

the record that I didn't write.

942

:

It is probably one of the few songs that.

943

:

I like, I don't, when I learned

it at the time, it was a

944

:

cover song for me at the time.

945

:

So a piano player wrote it and

the guitar player that I was, I

946

:

just kind of got locked into this

guitar part that I absolutely hate.

947

:

And it's also like a pretty, I

don't know, like it's both girly and

948

:

it's a little bit more submissive

than my nature and my character is.

949

:

So I'm pretty uncomfortable playing it.

950

:

So I debated a lot about whether or not.

951

:

You know, with the excuse that I didn't

write it, that maybe I'd leave it off

952

:

the record, but it, it seemed like

editing history a little bit to do that.

953

:

So what I did was, um, actually got a, uh,

a friend of mine, Phil Madera to come in.

954

:

I said, listen,

955

:

Jason English (Host): No, that's

956

:

Jennifer Knapp: I don't.

957

:

Yeah, so I said to Phil, I said, just,

958

:

Jason English (Host): that's

959

:

Jennifer Knapp: want to learn this

song and in a totally new way.

960

:

So Phil's a wonderful keyboard

player, just knowing that the song was

961

:

originally written by a keyboardist.

962

:

And I just said to Phil, just learn

this, you know, learn this song and

963

:

you make a new creation out of it.

964

:

Like, you know, Do it like you're

doing a cover song that you want

965

:

to speak entirely different.

966

:

Don't listen to the record

Don't do whatever and whatever

967

:

vocal stuff that I have to do.

968

:

I'll figure it out I'll find a new way

to sing it But I want you to find a

969

:

new way to play it And that was really

that was a really lovely experience

970

:

to be able to go through that.

971

:

It's it's still not a song I think that

I would you know pull out like to go.

972

:

Hey, this is a song I want to sing every

night But phil's contribution to that

973

:

record and playing it In a modern context

with a lot of the way that it's kind

974

:

of interesting like phil's Adaptation

of it kind of makes me feel like i'm

975

:

doing like a barbara streisand number

Like it's got like kind of these rich

976

:

jazzy chords with like a little gospel

kind of thrown in there And it's it's

977

:

really epic and beautiful and it's just

the two of us doing that song, which

978

:

is really lovely It was it was a pretty

redemptive experience to go back So if I

979

:

just shut the door to it, I wouldn't have

been able to have that experience And I

980

:

think what's come out the other side is

something really renewed and refreshed

981

:

Jason English (Host): great.

982

:

And I'll come, I'll come

back to fill in a second.

983

:

But you mentioned Steve

Hindelong produced it, right?

984

:

Chris Donahue played, played bass, right?

985

:

This time

986

:

Jennifer Knapp: Yeah, you've been

paying attention to all the social

987

:

media stuff we've been putting out

988

:

Jason English (Host): All the,

all the posts I'm getting it.

989

:

And then Matt Slocum of

Sixpence None the Richer.

990

:

Is he your guitarist with, along with

991

:

Jennifer Knapp: I've

known Matt for forever.

992

:

As long as I've been around Contemporary

Christian Music, Matt and I were

993

:

playing at some of the same clubs

before either of us got signed.

994

:

So I've been a big Matt Slocum fan

for a long time, and now that we're

995

:

playing together, We're practically

neighbors and Steve Hindelang's kind

996

:

of the glue in between the two of us.

997

:

So he, he made sure that Matt got over

there and played a lot and, but Matt

998

:

really buried himself in the work.

999

:

I mean, he was there for hours

and just put his head down and

:

00:57:51,665 --> 00:57:53,045

just really got lost in the music.

:

00:57:53,045 --> 00:57:53,935

And I think it shows up.

:

00:57:53,935 --> 00:57:57,065

It's some of the, it's some

of the most, uh, I don't know.

:

00:57:57,065 --> 00:57:57,745

I'm really honored.

:

00:57:57,755 --> 00:58:00,635

Like when I listened to the tracks

and stuff, I realized how much

:

00:58:00,645 --> 00:58:04,005

that, that Matt in particular put a

lot of his heart and soul into it.

:

00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:05,420

Jason English (Host): Yeah, that's neat.

:

00:58:05,570 --> 00:58:06,390

And then you mentioned Phil.

:

00:58:06,390 --> 00:58:08,080

So again, I asked you about Rich Mullins.

:

00:58:08,090 --> 00:58:09,570

Phil was part of the Ragamuffin band.

:

00:58:10,260 --> 00:58:11,330

Uh, when, when Rich

:

00:58:11,335 --> 00:58:12,235

Jennifer Knapp: Yeah, for sure.

:

00:58:12,420 --> 00:58:14,020

Jason English (Host): that,

made that album and toured.

:

00:58:14,020 --> 00:58:18,440

And, um, so he, you know, and he's

plays with Emily Harris and all the

:

00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:20,090

things, but he, a couple of days ago,

:

00:58:20,095 --> 00:58:21,880

Jennifer Knapp: you, if, if Oh, sorry.

:

00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:22,240

Go ahead.

:

00:58:22,860 --> 00:58:23,320

Jason English (Host): no, go ahead.

:

00:58:23,330 --> 00:58:23,510

Yeah.

:

00:58:23,510 --> 00:58:23,940

Keep going.

:

00:58:24,100 --> 00:58:25,900

Jennifer Knapp: Well, I was going

to say for those who don't know who,

:

00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:27,390

who Phil Madera is, look him up.

:

00:58:27,390 --> 00:58:30,830

I mean, he is a, an American,

he is an American music legend.

:

00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:31,490

I'm for sure.

:

00:58:31,500 --> 00:58:35,970

I mean, from all the things that he's been

participating with here in Nashville for a

:

00:58:35,970 --> 00:58:38,390

gosh, I don't know, 40 years, maybe more.

:

00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:41,450

I don't want to make him older

than he is, but yeah, he is.

:

00:58:41,710 --> 00:58:46,980

He is a storied man who has the talent

to boot and I I call him phil fucking

:

00:58:46,980 --> 00:58:52,530

madera You can bleep that out if you

need to but like he He's he's just

:

00:58:52,570 --> 00:58:56,380

there's nobody else like him and

the fact that he took the time To

:

00:58:56,420 --> 00:58:57,950

to work on my record was really fun.

:

00:58:57,950 --> 00:59:00,640

And if you haven't checked him

out, he's doing he's creating all

:

00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:01,830

the time Which is really brilliant

:

00:59:03,190 --> 00:59:03,500

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

:

00:59:03,530 --> 00:59:04,260

It's like Roy Kent,

:

00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:05,070

Jennifer Knapp: were gonna say

:

00:59:06,260 --> 00:59:06,580

Jason English (Host): No, yeah.

:

00:59:06,580 --> 00:59:10,880

I was just going to say, um, so yeah,

I, I've, I follow Phil cause again,

:

00:59:11,390 --> 00:59:13,240

goes back to the Rich Mullins days, but.

:

00:59:14,020 --> 00:59:16,540

He plays with Buddy and Julie

Miller and Amelia Harris.

:

00:59:16,790 --> 00:59:20,160

Like you said, he's elected, but

he posted just a few days ago about

:

00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:24,010

your album and I had no idea that he

was going to be, uh, be part of it.

:

00:59:24,010 --> 00:59:25,950

But this is, this is kind of what he said.

:

00:59:25,950 --> 00:59:28,600

Cause this kind of goes back to some

of the things we've been talking about.

:

00:59:29,180 --> 00:59:32,930

Obviously he's, he says nice words

about you and the fact that you, you

:

00:59:32,930 --> 00:59:34,680

know, each other a long time, but.

:

00:59:35,220 --> 00:59:39,400

He's like, when she came out a long

time ago, she being Jennifer Knapp, came

:

00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:42,750

out a long time ago, she effectively

ended her career in Christian music.

:

00:59:43,060 --> 00:59:43,990

She disappeared.

:

00:59:44,820 --> 00:59:49,540

Uh, in:

Emily Harris at a little fair in Kansas.

:

00:59:49,570 --> 00:59:52,410

I found out that Jen was on

the bill, and I sought her out,

:

00:59:52,830 --> 00:59:54,290

uh, on one of the side stages.

:

00:59:54,330 --> 00:59:56,220

I just wanted to let

her know she was seen.

:

00:59:56,910 --> 01:00:01,220

I find it mind blowing that

LGBTQ people still ascribe

:

01:00:01,220 --> 01:00:02,780

to some kind of Christianity.

:

01:00:03,310 --> 01:00:06,790

When many of the faithful have been

so unchristlike to their community.

:

01:00:08,230 --> 01:00:12,520

I read that I was like damn Like

like cut to the cut to the heart.

:

01:00:15,740 --> 01:00:18,960

Jennifer Knapp: yeah feels the thought,

you know, not only is it an amazing artist

:

01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:23,180

like he's a he's a thoughtful guy And

I you know, I think the the legacy of

:

01:00:23,180 --> 01:00:26,570

working in and around the faith community

for a long time Which you know, there's

:

01:00:26,570 --> 01:00:30,420

a lot of us musicians here in nashville

that have had that experience but there's

:

01:00:30,420 --> 01:00:34,680

a money where his mouth is kind of guy

and you know, he's been around and see a

:

01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:39,880

lot of people come and go and You know the

fact that that he's you know, like i've

:

01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,350

had an experience in nashville with some

people It's just the way that it goes but

:

01:00:43,350 --> 01:00:48,580

some people won't touch you right because

i'm a I can be a third rail and being just

:

01:00:48,660 --> 01:00:51,450

coming and playing on a record because

it can maybe get them in trouble with

:

01:00:51,460 --> 01:00:55,490

their community, but phil's an example

of a guy who's never really hesitated to

:

01:00:55,490 --> 01:00:59,455

do that and just Case in point, I put his

name out there in social media because

:

01:00:59,455 --> 01:01:04,145

I'm bragging about him, and I want to, I

just forget that, you know, I'll ruffle

:

01:01:04,145 --> 01:01:07,445

some feathers, but I put him out there

on social media, and before you know it,

:

01:01:07,445 --> 01:01:11,165

like, it didn't even take 24 hours, and

they got the Christian haters showing up

:

01:01:11,165 --> 01:01:15,335

on his website and giving him hell for

hanging out and supporting a queer person,

:

01:01:15,335 --> 01:01:20,420

and, you know, and I think, but Phil's

a kind human being, like, he's just And

:

01:01:20,430 --> 01:01:24,190

he's also, you know, saying, listen, like,

you might want to be like that, but not

:

01:01:24,190 --> 01:01:27,940

around here, not on, you know, not on my,

not on my watch and not, you know, not

:

01:01:27,940 --> 01:01:29,440

with people that I love and I care about.

:

01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:33,140

And I think, you know, he's, he's

a guy that, you know, it's, it's

:

01:01:33,140 --> 01:01:35,120

nice to see that kind of translate.

:

01:01:35,315 --> 01:01:36,595

into, you know, his person.

:

01:01:36,595 --> 01:01:41,015

It translates into his art and a lot

of the community that is one of the

:

01:01:41,015 --> 01:01:44,765

reasons why Phil's so beloved here

in the Nashville area and not just

:

01:01:44,765 --> 01:01:49,565

because he's an amazing musician, but

because he's, you know, a human being

:

01:01:49,565 --> 01:01:54,475

who wants to like, yeah, have the world

full of other good human beings and

:

01:01:54,515 --> 01:01:56,545

inspiring them and watching them grow.

:

01:01:57,610 --> 01:01:59,430

Jason English (Host): No, that's

great So what do you think about

:

01:01:59,430 --> 01:02:00,720

what he said about you know?

:

01:02:01,470 --> 01:02:05,870

It's mind blowing that gay people still

ascribe to some sort of Christianity given

:

01:02:05,870 --> 01:02:08,590

how they've been treated It's kind of

what we were talking about earlier, right?

:

01:02:08,590 --> 01:02:12,260

Like Christians are sort of

our obstacle to Christianity.

:

01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:14,560

And I guess, uh, so what

do you think about that?

:

01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:19,360

And then my question is, are you,

you're not part of Christian music,

:

01:02:19,620 --> 01:02:22,900

like, you know, the industry, uh,

but you're coming out with Kansas 25,

:

01:02:22,930 --> 01:02:24,630

which is essentially a Christian album.

:

01:02:25,430 --> 01:02:30,490

Are you, are you hoping and trying to

change kind of the evangelical church,

:

01:02:30,530 --> 01:02:34,110

or have you accepted that like, listen,

there's going to be factions of it

:

01:02:34,110 --> 01:02:35,580

that, you know, will never change.

:

01:02:35,590 --> 01:02:38,160

And like, you know, you're not going

to like worry yourself with that.

:

01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:38,430

Right.

:

01:02:38,430 --> 01:02:38,720

Yeah.

:

01:02:40,655 --> 01:02:42,235

Jennifer Knapp: Um, well,

I do worry about it.

:

01:02:42,255 --> 01:02:45,825

I mean, I, I think, you know, as

a, the theologian part of me says,

:

01:02:45,835 --> 01:02:47,395

bad theology is bad theology.

:

01:02:47,405 --> 01:02:50,415

I mean, theology that hurts people is

just theology that hurts people and

:

01:02:50,415 --> 01:02:53,515

it's not particularly, you know, if

we're going to qualify it as good or

:

01:02:53,515 --> 01:02:58,075

bad or useful or not useful, you know,

I think the, the, the verdict is out on

:

01:02:58,075 --> 01:03:02,680

how devastating the theology that says

that God doesn't love gay people is bad.

:

01:03:02,900 --> 01:03:04,430

It's been incredibly damaging.

:

01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:10,420

Um, so I think the evidence is there um

in that sense, but I also you know, what

:

01:03:10,420 --> 01:03:15,530

I also know from from history is that once

Once somebody has an idea about god or

:

01:03:15,530 --> 01:03:19,230

theology and starts to institutionalize

it It's it's pretty much here to stay

:

01:03:19,260 --> 01:03:22,520

the people that buy into that are looking

for things that you know Are the camp

:

01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:26,510

of people that they believe so like for

me personally, you know, I don't really

:

01:03:26,510 --> 01:03:32,570

spend my time trying to convert You know

anyone into a person pro LGBT thing, but

:

01:03:32,570 --> 01:03:37,290

that's rather to say, you know, and, and

even spinning off Phil's comment, like,

:

01:03:37,290 --> 01:03:40,990

it's surprising that LGBTQ people would

ever want to go anywhere near the church.

:

01:03:40,990 --> 01:03:43,580

And for me, I kind of felt

the same way for a long time.

:

01:03:43,580 --> 01:03:48,080

But the point is that, you know, for

those of us who do desire to have a safe,

:

01:03:48,110 --> 01:03:52,060

spiritual life to be around people who

understand something about a tradition

:

01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:58,250

and a way of Fostering our Kim, you know

fostering our spiritual lives I mean

:

01:03:58,250 --> 01:04:01,130

look at the same way as yoga You're gonna

if you want to do yoga, you want to get

:

01:04:01,140 --> 01:04:05,080

better at yoga You go to a yoga studio

with other people who know yoga So if

:

01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:08,850

you want to kind of do that spiritual

work, then it makes sense Especially when

:

01:04:08,850 --> 01:04:13,640

you're doing deep spiritual processing

that a lot of LGBTQ people particularly

:

01:04:13,750 --> 01:04:19,154

particularly in the city culture that

is, whether, you know, whether we like

:

01:04:19,154 --> 01:04:22,765

to admit it or not, inundated with kind

of Christian ideas and concepts of right

:

01:04:22,765 --> 01:04:26,685

and wrong and kind of, you know, these

kind of biblical ideas, well, that ain't

:

01:04:26,685 --> 01:04:31,105

what, you know, it's Adam and Eve, not

God, not Adam and Steve or whatever,

:

01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:31,930

Jason English (Host): and Steve, right?

:

01:04:32,115 --> 01:04:33,025

Jennifer Knapp: rubbish like that.

:

01:04:33,825 --> 01:04:34,645

That's out there.

:

01:04:34,645 --> 01:04:38,150

And to be able to go through that is still

a level of shame, whether you pursue it or

:

01:04:38,350 --> 01:04:43,230

Prescribed to that or ascribed to that or

not is still a thing to have to go through

:

01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:47,870

in valuing yourself and your own dignity

So why would but to why would LGBTQ people

:

01:04:47,870 --> 01:04:52,430

go to that space because that's spiritual

work So we need a spiritual community that

:

01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:56,290

that does understand that and opens the

door to that and it's very prosperous So

:

01:04:56,580 --> 01:05:00,510

what I'd say, you know, a lot of times in

my advocacy is not necessarily trying to

:

01:05:00,510 --> 01:05:03,625

change bad theology I let those stories

go I don't fight that fight anymore.

:

01:05:03,875 --> 01:05:07,465

I'm preserving this, you know,

I'm, I'm in this space going,

:

01:05:07,615 --> 01:05:08,805

if you need to leave, leave.

:

01:05:09,375 --> 01:05:12,445

And if, if you need to connect, then

connect, like, don't give up on that.

:

01:05:12,445 --> 01:05:15,995

And I, I would say that regardless of

whatever your sexual orientation is,

:

01:05:16,005 --> 01:05:21,295

like the, the institutions themselves

are not the authorizers of any of

:

01:05:21,295 --> 01:05:22,440

us wanting to do what we're doing.

:

01:05:22,730 --> 01:05:26,870

To to have a spiritual quest in our

lives and to find and connect to somebody

:

01:05:26,870 --> 01:05:29,860

inside of that community is actually

really hard work And you're going to

:

01:05:29,870 --> 01:05:32,980

have to stick to that work and you're

going to make a decision to advocate

:

01:05:32,980 --> 01:05:36,529

for yourself to some degree because

there's For as many people that are out

:

01:05:36,529 --> 01:05:39,930

there that would say that you're not

invited into this space I I mean i'm

:

01:05:39,930 --> 01:05:43,100

fine with that like for me personally

Like I don't want to be in that space.

:

01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:48,470

I don't want to be in the space of people

who are not Interested in my fruitfulness

:

01:05:48,870 --> 01:05:51,190

my dignity and my flourishing, right?

:

01:05:51,190 --> 01:05:54,815

You people who are invested in

that because it's hard work.

:

01:05:54,825 --> 01:05:56,715

It's messy work and it's beautiful work.

:

01:05:56,765 --> 01:05:59,035

And those are the people

that I really want.

:

01:05:59,245 --> 01:06:00,154

I need their wisdom.

:

01:06:00,154 --> 01:06:01,085

I need their support.

:

01:06:01,135 --> 01:06:06,295

I don't need agreement, but I do need like

it does take a village to some degree.

:

01:06:06,295 --> 01:06:10,000

So I think that's, You know, I

think that's what I would say.

:

01:06:10,029 --> 01:06:13,050

Like, if Phil were sitting here,

I was like, that's why we go back.

:

01:06:13,050 --> 01:06:15,390

We're connected because we're

connected to other human beings.

:

01:06:15,390 --> 01:06:16,320

There's no way around it.

:

01:06:16,350 --> 01:06:19,260

But we will find ourselves, you know,

and the church can be that, like

:

01:06:19,265 --> 01:06:23,130

our, our spiritual spaces can be

that, but not everyone can do that.

:

01:06:23,135 --> 01:06:27,820

So, um, you know, I, I just kind of

wa, you know, wipe the dust off my

:

01:06:27,820 --> 01:06:31,450

feet, so to speak, of the places who

have made it very clear that they don't

:

01:06:31,450 --> 01:06:33,070

want to be engaged in that white work.

:

01:06:33,070 --> 01:06:34,779

And I go out and support

the people who do.

:

01:06:36,900 --> 01:06:37,580

Jason English (Host): Yeah, that's great.

:

01:06:37,620 --> 01:06:38,060

That's great.

:

01:06:38,090 --> 01:06:38,320

All right.

:

01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:41,470

So a couple more questions and that

you've, you've talked about coming

:

01:06:41,470 --> 01:06:45,270

out like, you know, ad nauseum on

interviews and stuff, but I have to ask

:

01:06:45,820 --> 01:06:47,880

about the Larry King live interview.

:

01:06:50,705 --> 01:06:51,315

Jennifer Knapp: Oh,

:

01:06:51,370 --> 01:06:52,210

Jason English (Host): as awkward?

:

01:06:52,420 --> 01:06:54,630

Was that as awkward as it looked?

:

01:06:54,785 --> 01:06:56,615

Jennifer Knapp: Excruciating.

:

01:06:56,665 --> 01:06:57,445

Oh my god.

:

01:06:57,455 --> 01:07:01,035

That was like the most painful thing I've

ever done on camera in my whole life.

:

01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:06,910

Jason English (Host): I mean, I remember

watching it like, In real time along,

:

01:07:06,910 --> 01:07:10,470

you know, 14 years ago, whenever that

was, and then, you know, it's on YouTube.

:

01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:12,050

And so, yeah, if

:

01:07:12,445 --> 01:07:14,705

Jennifer Knapp: Can you

be gay and Christian?

:

01:07:15,540 --> 01:07:18,430

Jason English (Host): I mean, yeah,

well, the funny thing, so like, I

:

01:07:18,430 --> 01:07:21,800

need to ask you, like Bob Botsford,

have you talked to him since that

:

01:07:21,820 --> 01:07:22,970

the pastor that was on there?

:

01:07:25,395 --> 01:07:28,654

Jennifer Knapp: No,

that, that Raph Scallion?

:

01:07:28,654 --> 01:07:30,495

No, like he was supposedly there

:

01:07:30,550 --> 01:07:32,210

Jason English (Host): Yeah,

like the one that was with you.

:

01:07:32,404 --> 01:07:32,995

Jennifer Knapp: me and then I've,

:

01:07:33,170 --> 01:07:33,580

Jason English (Host): Yeah,

:

01:07:34,170 --> 01:07:36,720

Jennifer Knapp: Yeah, and I

had a gig that night, actually.

:

01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:39,880

I had a, I had a, I was taping in LA

and then I had to go down to Orange

:

01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:42,940

County, which was about a two hour

drive, you know, down to San Diego.

:

01:07:43,265 --> 01:07:47,375

To do a show, or it was in Orange County,

it wasn't quite San Diego, but I had to

:

01:07:47,385 --> 01:07:51,125

get in a car and get through rush hour

LA traffic to go down and do my show.

:

01:07:51,125 --> 01:07:54,885

And I said to Bob, I said, well, I was

like, if you want to know the people that

:

01:07:54,885 --> 01:07:56,705

I'm talking about, come, come see a show.

:

01:07:56,845 --> 01:07:58,185

You can be pissed at me, that's fine.

:

01:07:58,225 --> 01:07:58,915

All day long.

:

01:07:59,095 --> 01:08:03,955

But don't you dare come and talk one more

word about any of this stuff going on.

:

01:08:03,955 --> 01:08:06,095

Come down and, and this

is who I'm talking about.

:

01:08:06,105 --> 01:08:08,154

These are the people that

you are talking against.

:

01:08:08,740 --> 01:08:10,140

And I'd like you to come meet them.

:

01:08:10,140 --> 01:08:12,910

I'd like you to come, you know,

It's not like my audience was like

:

01:08:12,910 --> 01:08:16,229

a hundred percent queer, but there

were a lot of like, you know, This

:

01:08:16,229 --> 01:08:17,890

was like 15 years ago or something.

:

01:08:17,890 --> 01:08:22,300

So there were a lot of like otherwise

straight white Evangelicals coming

:

01:08:22,300 --> 01:08:25,319

to my show that were getting pretty

pissed off at feeling uncomfortable

:

01:08:25,319 --> 01:08:28,260

in there and not accepted in their

religious spaces for whatever reasons.

:

01:08:28,779 --> 01:08:32,470

So it's like you should come down and

hang out and see that what I'm doing is

:

01:08:32,470 --> 01:08:35,790

not what you're saying that I'm doing

like You think that you know, but it's

:

01:08:35,790 --> 01:08:38,700

like hey, man These are just people

looking for love and I'm loving them and

:

01:08:38,710 --> 01:08:42,430

that's what we're gonna do here So if you

want to come see that never came down.

:

01:08:42,430 --> 01:08:47,640

I I've never seen him again I've played

in the area and I don't know maybe Maybe

:

01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:51,170

I dusted the floor with him just enough

that he didn't want to be a mop anymore.

:

01:08:51,170 --> 01:08:54,109

But, you know, it was just a weird thing.

:

01:08:54,109 --> 01:08:57,029

It's just like, man, you say you're here

for love, but you're not connecting to

:

01:08:57,029 --> 01:08:58,300

any of the people that you're talking to.

:

01:08:58,300 --> 01:08:59,740

You're not looking them in the eye.

:

01:08:59,750 --> 01:09:01,410

And it was just a weird thing.

:

01:09:01,410 --> 01:09:03,340

I didn't know that dude

was coming on the show.

:

01:09:03,340 --> 01:09:06,600

Like he shows up and yeah, the

Larry King crew is like, yeah,

:

01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:07,779

we're going to have this guy on.

:

01:09:07,779 --> 01:09:08,840

I was like, who is this guy?

:

01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:09,760

What's going to happen?

:

01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:11,779

And then Ted Haggard showed up.

:

01:09:11,779 --> 01:09:11,840

I

:

01:09:12,045 --> 01:09:13,295

Jason English (Host):

Ted Haggard shows up.

:

01:09:13,305 --> 01:09:14,335

I was like, Oh my God,

:

01:09:16,225 --> 01:09:16,645

Jennifer Knapp: I was

:

01:09:16,645 --> 01:09:17,565

Jason English (Host): I totally forgot

:

01:09:17,904 --> 01:09:19,305

Jennifer Knapp: many dudes, like,

:

01:09:21,684 --> 01:09:22,415

Jason English (Host): was crazy.

:

01:09:22,415 --> 01:09:24,045

And here's my take on it.

:

01:09:24,285 --> 01:09:29,285

You had, you had Bob sitting next to you

who again, proclaims to be, you know,

:

01:09:29,415 --> 01:09:31,395

he's a pastor, probably a giant church.

:

01:09:32,184 --> 01:09:36,184

He's talking in veiled, all the

veiled language of, Hey, it's love.

:

01:09:36,205 --> 01:09:39,404

But underneath it, you can tell,

like, he basically despises you,

:

01:09:39,465 --> 01:09:41,604

you know, like it's, it's all there.

:

01:09:41,645 --> 01:09:44,285

And then you have Ted

Haggard who was remote.

:

01:09:44,765 --> 01:09:46,805

He kind of was supporting

you, but kind of not.

:

01:09:47,319 --> 01:09:49,140

And then the, I think the one guy

:

01:09:49,215 --> 01:09:51,265

Jennifer Knapp: be too supportive

might have made him gay.

:

01:09:53,140 --> 01:09:54,040

Jason English (Host): Yeah, exactly.

:

01:09:54,630 --> 01:09:58,510

The one guy though, that supported you

was, you know, this 80 year old Jewish

:

01:09:58,559 --> 01:10:02,590

talk show hosts, you know, like he,

you know, Larry was actually, you know,

:

01:10:02,590 --> 01:10:05,950

you could tell he was kind of like,

you guys are ridiculous, you know,

:

01:10:06,220 --> 01:10:07,610

you know, talking to her like this.

:

01:10:08,410 --> 01:10:08,980

I couldn't believe it.

:

01:10:08,990 --> 01:10:10,220

I was just like, Oh my gosh.

:

01:10:12,215 --> 01:10:15,325

Jennifer Knapp: Well, I got, I got

through it somehow, like, yeah, it, I

:

01:10:15,335 --> 01:10:19,445

mean, it was one of those moments that,

you know, I was like, oh my god, like,

:

01:10:19,455 --> 01:10:22,025

in the middle of it, like, you know how

you have the voice in your head, and I

:

01:10:22,035 --> 01:10:24,825

was sitting there going, how did I get

here, this is the dumbest thing, I'm

:

01:10:24,825 --> 01:10:28,975

never gonna do this again, like, I'm not

a big publicity, You know, I don't seek

:

01:10:28,975 --> 01:10:32,965

publicity a lot, but it seemed really,

you know, one of the reasons why I

:

01:10:32,965 --> 01:10:36,755

took the interview is because it's just

like, man, this is, enough is enough.

:

01:10:36,775 --> 01:10:41,945

Like we gotta, like, somebody's gotta

take the opportunity to like be, there

:

01:10:41,945 --> 01:10:46,200

hadn't been a lot of other like notable

Christians that had actually, Taken

:

01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:49,460

responsibility for where they were at

like they'd come out or gotten caught

:

01:10:49,470 --> 01:10:52,530

coming out or being caught as gay

It's like I'm not being caught as gay.

:

01:10:52,530 --> 01:10:53,090

I'm gay.

:

01:10:53,300 --> 01:10:59,370

This is my life and like why I'm not gonna

let allow Yet another like media surge to

:

01:10:59,370 --> 01:11:03,400

scandalize a human being who's just living

their lives and I knew that you know

:

01:11:03,430 --> 01:11:07,940

Like there's some it wasn't necessarily

for me like I'm fine you can people can

:

01:11:07,940 --> 01:11:11,450

say you know, I wouldn't be out here in

the public eye if I wasn't able to some

:

01:11:11,450 --> 01:11:16,720

degree to be able to To handle, you know

what other people think about me but there

:

01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:20,440

is a certain point where it's like I was

thinking about my friends and and the the

:

01:11:20,440 --> 01:11:24,760

people that I meet on a daily basis and

My community of people who didn't don't

:

01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:28,720

get the voice that I have going No, you

don't get to do this on top of all of

:

01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:32,300

these people's heads You can't just write

people off and write people out of the

:

01:11:32,300 --> 01:11:38,920

church bob and ted, you know He was nice

and redemptive to a degree, but he wasn't

:

01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:44,100

exactly claiming anything groundbreaking

or standing up for anybody I just stood

:

01:11:44,100 --> 01:11:47,760

there and you know, tried to survive it

as best I can You know, I think if I had

:

01:11:47,760 --> 01:11:52,140

to go back and do it again, I'd probably

be a lot more feisty and articulate but

:

01:11:53,230 --> 01:11:55,020

You know just being able to go I feel

:

01:11:55,030 --> 01:11:55,570

Jason English (Host): it was so, it,

:

01:11:55,700 --> 01:11:59,350

Jennifer Knapp: be there and

not cry felt like a victory

:

01:12:01,190 --> 01:12:02,980

Jason English (Host): yeah, no,

I mean, it was so, it was so new

:

01:12:03,050 --> 01:12:03,790

Jennifer Knapp: But it's just it's

:

01:12:03,950 --> 01:12:04,260

Jason English (Host): and now

:

01:12:04,350 --> 01:12:05,559

Jennifer Knapp: changing the narrative

:

01:12:07,420 --> 01:12:07,809

Jason English (Host): Yeah,

:

01:12:08,630 --> 01:12:09,770

Jennifer Knapp: Well, I think over time,

:

01:12:09,900 --> 01:12:10,820

Jason English (Host): So, um,

:

01:12:10,880 --> 01:12:14,380

Jennifer Knapp: to faith, oh sorry,

we clearly have a little bit of

:

01:12:14,380 --> 01:12:15,780

a lag here, so you go, sorry.

:

01:12:17,010 --> 01:12:18,410

Jason English (Host): yeah,

yeah, no, that's right.

:

01:12:18,410 --> 01:12:18,660

Yeah.

:

01:12:18,710 --> 01:12:19,130

Keep going.

:

01:12:19,140 --> 01:12:19,520

Keep going.

:

01:12:21,100 --> 01:12:25,030

Jennifer Knapp: What I was going to say

is that, clearly there's been a narrative

:

01:12:25,030 --> 01:12:29,960

inside of like the incompatibility

between faith communities and LGBTQ stuff.

:

01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:33,955

And I think, You know, I disagree with

that largely because we haven't had a

:

01:12:33,955 --> 01:12:39,434

voice and for lgbtq people now I think

15 years on you know, it's not exactly

:

01:12:39,434 --> 01:12:43,985

smooth sailing But the you know, the

familiarity of lgbtq plus people that

:

01:12:43,985 --> 01:12:48,575

sexuality is on a spectrum and so is

gender You know to some degree is not

:

01:12:48,575 --> 01:12:53,065

necessarily hard and fast like everybody

has always kind of preached so to speak

:

01:12:53,065 --> 01:12:56,330

that it is To be able to actually see

that people's lives haven't fallen apart

:

01:12:56,330 --> 01:13:00,700

Fold it over, capitulate it, or as, you

know, I think one of the things that

:

01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:05,045

like Conservatives sometimes like to

say that, you know, I've chosen to, to

:

01:13:05,045 --> 01:13:06,795

give up and fall into a life of sin.

:

01:13:06,795 --> 01:13:07,515

It's not that.

:

01:13:07,515 --> 01:13:12,045

It's actually very liberating to

know who you are, to be confident in

:

01:13:12,045 --> 01:13:15,285

who you are, and to be unashamed of

you, who you are, and to figure out

:

01:13:15,295 --> 01:13:16,715

how to live your life with dignity.

:

01:13:16,725 --> 01:13:20,800

And that's, that is not a journey that,

You know, I think if anything, I would

:

01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:25,700

say the LGBTQ community has been helpful

to society in saying this is the journey.

:

01:13:25,710 --> 01:13:27,100

Like, this is a life's work.

:

01:13:27,100 --> 01:13:29,059

It's not about who you are sleeping with.

:

01:13:29,059 --> 01:13:32,460

It is about doing the work of

understanding and knowing yourself and

:

01:13:32,470 --> 01:13:36,180

being able to then, you know, know the

difference between the way that we behave

:

01:13:36,180 --> 01:13:40,100

when we're living in shame and living

in the dark and we're struggling to,

:

01:13:40,100 --> 01:13:41,855

like, Figure out who we are in the world.

:

01:13:41,855 --> 01:13:46,105

It's it's a panicky hot mess But once

you start actually coming out literally

:

01:13:46,105 --> 01:13:50,515

coming out of the closet Start to let

the light in so to speak into your

:

01:13:50,515 --> 01:13:54,695

lives and actually embrace who you are

Have an education and understanding and

:

01:13:54,885 --> 01:13:58,515

an investment in your own development

and your own growth and dignity It's

:

01:13:58,515 --> 01:14:03,585

a you know, that is to me is actually

way more A universal prospect and I

:

01:14:03,605 --> 01:14:08,090

think that's a gift that the lgbtq Q

community has paid a lot of extreme

:

01:14:08,090 --> 01:14:10,430

prices for to be able to get through.

:

01:14:10,490 --> 01:14:12,480

That's actually something

that we can all share in.

:

01:14:12,480 --> 01:14:15,910

It's not just about putting a rainbow

flag on the door, but understanding

:

01:14:16,260 --> 01:14:19,080

something about the community who

has been able to teach something

:

01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:20,710

to us inside of the community.

:

01:14:21,005 --> 01:14:24,795

with their experience and using that

in a positive way rather than just

:

01:14:24,795 --> 01:14:27,684

saying, you know, You could write us

off or we could be mad or angry or

:

01:14:27,684 --> 01:14:32,245

mad just going No, we actually want to

be a part of our community and share

:

01:14:32,245 --> 01:14:36,635

our wisdom as particular as it may be

But hopefully that wisdom is a little

:

01:14:36,635 --> 01:14:39,055

bit more than just binary so to speak

:

01:14:40,940 --> 01:14:42,000

Jason English (Host):

Yeah, no, that's great.

:

01:14:42,030 --> 01:14:43,680

Well, Jennifer, thank you

so much for your time.

:

01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:45,180

It's so nice to talk with you.

:

01:14:45,820 --> 01:14:48,780

Uh, would you be so kind

to play us some music?

:

01:14:50,325 --> 01:14:53,335

Jennifer Knapp: Do you do

you have a a special request?

:

01:15:25,355 --> 01:15:33,850

As a little girl, I went down to the water

with a little stone in my hand and it.

:

01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:38,530

would shimmer and sing knew everything.

:

01:15:46,795 --> 01:15:50,245

In a little, I got steeped in authority.

:

01:15:52,075 --> 01:15:59,155

Heaven were went wrong when there is

nothing so cruel and meant to bury

:

01:15:59,155 --> 01:16:08,005

that you Oh, and I, yeah, was mine

all along and I'm gonna find it.

:

01:16:11,605 --> 01:16:13,015

I can see you.

:

01:16:14,545 --> 01:16:26,714

Smiling, that's enough, well, I'm holding

on to you like a diamond in the rough,

:

01:16:26,714 --> 01:16:31,704

yeah, like a diamond in the rough.

:

01:16:31,704 --> 01:16:40,259

Every now and then I can see

that I am getting somewhere,

:

01:16:40,259 --> 01:16:43,015

where I have to go is so deep.

:

01:16:45,735 --> 01:16:54,225

And yeah, you know, I still

am, but I haven't lost too much

:

01:16:54,235 --> 01:16:56,684

sleep and I'm gonna find it.

:

01:16:57,635 --> 01:17:02,475

You're shining, I can see you.

:

01:17:03,090 --> 01:17:15,600

You're smiling, that's enough, well, I'm

holding on to you like a diamond in the

:

01:17:15,610 --> 01:17:21,574

rough, yeah, like a diamond in the rough.

:

01:17:21,574 --> 01:17:29,960

Snakes in the grass

better step on the gas.

:

01:17:51,430 --> 01:18:02,170

Snakes in the grass better step on the gas

In my dreams I go down by the water with

:

01:18:02,170 --> 01:18:11,920

a Little girl in my arms and we shiver

and sing And we know everything Yeah,

:

01:18:11,920 --> 01:18:16,720

yeah, yeah In my dreams I go downtown

:

01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:33,910

I go down, you're shining, I can see you,

you're smiling, that's enough for you, I'm

:

01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:49,090

holding on to you like a diamond in the

rough, yeah, like a diamond in the rough.

:

01:19:03,635 --> 01:19:04,395

Jason English (Host): Oh my gosh.

:

01:19:04,465 --> 01:19:05,595

That was fantastic.

:

01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:06,450

Jennifer Knapp: you like them apples?

:

01:19:07,910 --> 01:19:08,960

Jason English (Host): Oh, so good.

:

01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:09,559

So good.

:

01:19:09,790 --> 01:19:10,400

Thank you.

:

01:19:10,410 --> 01:19:10,970

Thank you.

:

01:19:11,860 --> 01:19:13,180

Jennifer Knapp: Oh,

it's my pleasure, mate.

:

01:19:13,210 --> 01:19:13,720

My pleasure.

:

01:19:21,848 --> 01:19:23,407

Jason English (Host): Thanks so

much for joining us for another

:

01:19:23,407 --> 01:19:25,198

episode of Curious Goldfish.

:

01:19:25,638 --> 01:19:28,918

Please follow and subscribe to

the podcast and on social media.

:

01:19:29,498 --> 01:19:32,118

Also tell your music loving

friends about us too.

:

01:19:32,848 --> 01:19:34,968

Until next time, stay curious.

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About the Podcast

Curious Goldfish
A Community Where Inquisitiveness and Music Come Together. Inspired by the Mindset of Ted Lasso.
Launching in 2024, the Curious Goldfish Brand is inspired by two episodes from the First Season of the Apple TV+ Series Ted Lasso.

The “Goldfish” reference is about the importance of not dwelling on mistakes in life. In an early episode, Ted Lasso, the series’ namesake asks one of his players – after they were badly beaten in a play during training – what the happiest animal on earth is. The answer: A Goldfish, because it has a 10-second memory. Lasso encourages the player to forget the mistake and to not let it hinder his mindset. In other words, to “Be a Goldfish.” The “Curious” reference is born from another Season 1 episode where Ted finds himself in a dart match at a local Pub with a ruthless Football Club Owner. Lasso references a quote from Walt Whitman to “Be Curious, Not Judgmental.”

So “Being a Goldfish” is a great start, but curiosity is an undervalued trait in today’s world. We don’t ask enough questions; we don’t inquire enough about each other and about life. So I want people to be “Curious Goldfish.”

The initial premise of the podcast will center around my curiosity about music. I can’t sing. I don’t play a musical instrument, but I am inspired by artists who are vulnerable enough to put their thoughts down and then share them with the entire world. I’m curious about the songwriting process; I’m curious about a musician’s journey; I’m curious about the business of music; I’m curious about who or what inspires a sad song, a love song - and everything in between.

Though the initial premise is music, we will likely spend time discussing and highlighting all-things Ted Lasso. In its three seasons, it inspired the host in so many ways (work, personal, relationships etc).

The musical focus of the Curious Goldfish Podcast will center around up-and-coming artists primarily in rock, roots, folk, Country and Americana genres. Not every aspiring musician will earn $100 million from Spotify streaming like Taylor Swift. Our goal is to shine a light on those artists who have as few as 100 monthly listeners to those with more than 100,000. Their stories deserve to be heard because your music can inspire, and it’s time you had a chance to share them.
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About your host

Profile picture for Jason English

Jason English

Tech Exec by Day, Music Lover Day and Night. Former Journalist who is trying to be a middle-aged William Miller from the Movie Almost Famous. Also, Ted Lasso changed his life...so there's that.