Episode 32

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Published on:

12th Oct 2024

A Chat with Andy Gullahorn: Faith & Family Are His Foundation

Embracing Complexity: Faith, Music, and Self-Discovery with Andy Gullahorn

In this episode of the Curious Goldfish podcast, host Jason English engages in a deep conversation with musician Andy Gullahorn, exploring the intricate web of personal beliefs, life challenges, and the confluence of faith and music. Key discussions highlight the importance of understanding different perspectives, the influence of personal experiences on belief systems, and the subtle shades of life's complexities beyond black and white views. Andy reflects on his journey as an artist, focusing on personal growth, vulnerability, and his song 'Different Now.' The episode also examines lessons from a Christian upbringing, humor in songwriting, and upcoming music projects. Themes of self-discovery, overcoming adversity, and the transformation into one's true self are interwoven, illustrating that resilience and embracing failures lead to genuine self-realization. Ultimately, the conversation offers insight into Andy's perspective on community, creativity, and personal evolution, promoting kindness, patience, and compassion as essential virtues.

Curious Goldfish is a Music Podcast About More Than Music


00:00 Introduction: Embracing Complexity in Life

01:42 Exploring Trauma and Spirituality in Art

02:30 Meet Andy Gullahorn: Musician and Storyteller

03:31 Soccer Stories and Fatherhood

07:18 Current Projects and Creative Process

11:21 Themes of Compassion and Rehumanization

20:32 The Role of the Church and Personal Growth

27:54 Reflecting on the Song 'Different Now'

36:26 Navigating Resentment in Relationships

37:33 Therapeutic Power of Music

39:14 The Good Kid Syndrome

42:11 Balancing Humor and Depth in Songwriting

50:27 The Impact of Vulnerability in Songwriting

55:43 Reflections on Rich Mullins and Christian Music

01:07:02 Curiosity and Community

Transcript
Andy Gullahorn:

when I look at the reality of my life, Nothing's

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ever that black and white.

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that's something that in this political

climate that I have to do, I have to

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be like, okay, this person who, who

believes strongly about something that

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I believe strongly the other side about,

there are reasons why they believe

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that, you know, and it's not just,

I can think like, oh, the reason why

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I believe what I believe is because.

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I'm really smart and logical and I know

what the right answer is to some degree,

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the reason I believe what I believe

is because I grew up where I grew up.

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I live in the neighborhood that I live in.

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I've had the experiences in life that

I've had and Who knows what their life

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experience was, you know, so I have to

leave room for that, and leave room for

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seeing them as humans and, and leave

room for myself to grow and change too.

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Jason English (Host): Nearly every

artist I've interviewed so far

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in this podcast has some sort of

trauma that you're dealing with.

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You'd assume that artists deal with

the usual suspects of addiction

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or depression, But I'm constantly

surprised at how much trauma many

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artists have with their upbringing in

the Christian tradition of America.

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Trauma probably isn't the right way to

describe Andy Gullahorn's experiences,

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but he no doubt has thought a lot

about spiritual things and religion

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and how all that comes together as

you enter adulthood, start a family

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and build relationships around you.

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Although he grew up Catholic, his

experiences are similar to mine.

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And we talk a lot about

this in this conversation.

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I reached out to Andy when I

heard his song, Different Now.

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I'm so grateful that we had the chance

to talk about it and he was also

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nice enough to perform it at the end.

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Andy is not just an accomplished musician

and songwriter, but a thoughtful and

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introspective artist whose work often

explores the depths of human experience.

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With a career spanning over two

decades, Andy has touched many through

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his poignant lyrics and relatable

storytelling, delving into themes such

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as family, faith, and personal growth.

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In this episode, we'll dive into

Andy's experiences, his musical

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journey, and the stories behind

some of his well loved songs.

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We'll touch on his reflections

about being a good kid.

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In the church and the nuances of

navigating life's challenges and how

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his songwriting has been a lens for

both personal and community healing.

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Plus we'll explore, plus we'll explore

the lighter side of his music, where

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humor and wit shine just as brightly.

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From Nashville, Tennessee,

here's Andy Gullahorn.

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Let's dive in.

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, nice to meet you.

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I'm Jason.

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Thanks for your time.

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Andy Gullahorn: for having me.

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Yeah,

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Jason English (Host): Uh, I've

got a few things I wanted to catch

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up about, uh, but I want to start

with something a little bit random.

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Hopefully, hopefully you

want to talk about this.

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Uh, so both my boys played soccer

growing up and I know you have a son.

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I think his name is Tyler.

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I think you posted a few weeks ago and

what he scored a goal that was ridiculous.

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It's like a banger with

his left foot from way out.

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And it was nominated, I think,

for goal of the year for like

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Tennessee high school soccer.

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Is that right?

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First off, congrats.

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First off, congrats on that.

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It was a hell of a, it was a hell of a

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shot.

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Um, did he

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Andy Gullahorn: thanks.

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I had a lot to do with that or nothing.

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Jason English (Host): No, it's good.

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Uh, yeah.

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I, how did that, how did that end

up in terms of, do he, do you know

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if he

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won or not?

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Andy Gullahorn: He didn't win.

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He got second place in, in, uh, Tennessee

high school goals, which was pretty

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awesome, but he was up against, uh, like

a bicycle kick in from a corner kicks,

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which is kind of, it was hard to beat.

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I mean, it was a great, uh, you

know, they had like tournament style.

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So it was like every other day it

was him up against another goal

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and based on voting or whatever.

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And, um, So he, he took second, but

it was, uh, it was quite a goal.

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He was, he was pretty excited about it.

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I was pretty excited

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about it.

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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Is he, is he left footed?

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Andy Gullahorn: he is, he's,

he's right handed left footed.

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Uh, he's pretty good with both of his

feet, but left, he plays left back.

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Uh, so that goal he was kind of

following up in a, in a, in a cross

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went and the defender kicked it out

and he was like way outside the box

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and he just kind of went for it.

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And it was, it was, uh,

it was fun to watch.

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Jason English (Host):

Yeah, no, that's great.

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And the reason I bring it up is

obviously we're both, we're both

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fathers whose sons play soccer.

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My boys are, they're in college now,

but they, um, some of the, some of

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the best memories, obviously as a

father is watching all of my kids.

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I also have a daughter do their thing,

you know, whether that was for her

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violin or, you know, poms and for

the boys, you know, mainly soccer.

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So yeah, well done.

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That's awesome.

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Is he, um, does he have any

aspirations to play beyond high

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school?

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Andy Gullahorn: Maybe I mean, he's,

he's going into his, uh, senior year

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in high school and we were, uh, bad

parents in that we had three kids.

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He's our youngest.

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Uh, and he didn't play club soccer

like all of his friends did.

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I mean, COVID kind of hit

seventh grade year for him.

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So we were just traveling a lot and

three kids were like, yeah, we can't,

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we can't do a club soccer thing.

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So he kind of, uh, in high school has

been kind of coming into his own, uh,

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and catching up with kids who've been

playing, you know, club their whole life.

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Uh, But I think a benefit of that

is there are a lot of kids who play

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club soccer their whole life and

they get burned out by the end of

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high school and Tyler's not there.

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I think he, he's been talking to some

people about maybe playing, you know,

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in a D3 school or something like that

for college, but he's, he's not sure.

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He just, he loves playing.

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I'm excited to see what happens.

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Jason English (Host):

Yeah, no, that's cool.

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I think not that my boys could play it

like division one, but they, they could

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have played in college, uh, you know, at,

at a smaller school, but they got, they

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got burned out, uh, and they played club.

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They played club since they

were like U-11 you know, U-12.

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And, um, it was fun as a dad, uh,

to, to see so many games, you know,

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through the years and sure you can

relate like the, the memories and

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the time, you know, you'll, you'll

never, uh, you'll never forget.

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Um, but yeah, they, they were like,

okay, I'm done after high school.

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So,

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Andy Gullahorn: Totally.

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Yeah.

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I, I think, I mean, he is going to be

playing club this year, so I'm excited

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to go do a bunch of games and that

kind of stuff, but, um, I don't know.

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We'll see.

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Jason English (Host): So it's,

it's early July here in:

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Um, and there's, I'll get to the reason

why I reached out to you, uh, to do

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this interview kind of out of the

blue, uh, in, in a few minutes, but

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I guess for you, what are you working

on, you know, here in the summer?

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Um, in terms of, are you,

are you doing any new music?

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I think you, I think you're going to,

you're doing some shows later this summer.

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I guess.

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Could you just give us an

update on what does that look?

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What does that look like for you?

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Andy Gullahorn: Yeah, sure.

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I mean, um, I travel a good bit.

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You know, the funny thing is people

will be like, oh, it looks like

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you haven't been traveling much.

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And I'm like, oh, it's just

most of the stuff that I do.

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I don't put online.

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Cause it's not really open to.

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the public for some reason.

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I guess people who book me are

just ashamed of me and don't want

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other people to know about it.

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But, uh, no, I'm, I'm pretty busy,

uh, traveling, uh, all the time.

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Uh, but right now I'm also

trying to finish up a record

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I've been working on for years.

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I say working on, like, Doing

a little bit and then travel.

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It's hard for me to switch gears from

traveling to working in the studio.

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Uh, but I feel the crunch of needing to

have this thing done, uh, sometime soon.

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So, uh, you know, during the

days I'm, I'm working on that

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and usually travel on weekends.

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Jason English (Host): Nice.

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All right.

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Cause you haven't released like a full

album officially in a few years, right?

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It's been, It's been a minute.

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Andy Gullahorn: Yeah.

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Since 2017, I mean, it's

been, it's been seven years.

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It's been a long time.

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Uh, and I've had these, you know, I

could have done it during COVID, I

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guess, but you know, kids are home and

that just wasn't in the cards for me.

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So,

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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Andy Gullahorn: the funny thing is my

file on my computer when I'm working

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on the record, it said, you know,

the file was like Andy:

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And then I had to change

it to:

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Now I've had to change the 2024 record.

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I just don't want to change it to 2025.

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I want to get done this year,

but don't hold me to it.

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Jason English (Host): All right.

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No, I won't.

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Don't, don't worry about that.

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So I also noticed you have a Patreon

account and, uh, I think you're,

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you're pretty prolific in terms of.

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Contributing and posting to that.

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I think I saw somewhere where you've

got more than 70 unreleased songs

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that you've recorded and posted there.

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I guess this, the album that

you're working on, will you draw

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from any of those, or is this

completely kind of under wraps?

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Until the album.

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Andy Gullahorn: Yeah, no, some of the.

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Actually, probably all the songs

on the record would be on there.

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And the way that I,

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I look at Patreon, I can't

remember what, I think I started

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doing it a couple years ago.

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Uh, it was, there's so many songs,

both the ones that are on this record

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that I haven't like officially released

yet, but then a lot of other songs I

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write for other people or ones that

just aren't going to make the record.

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Uh, and I was like, I want some

place for those songs to live.

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But I also didn't have, uh, it

wouldn't be easy for me to like do

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like a regular production of each song

every month or something like that.

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So my, my deal with Patreon was like,

Oh, if people are interested in the

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writing process and the, and the new

songs, then pretty much when I write a

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new song, sometimes like the hour after

I write it, or if I'm still working on

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it, maybe a day or two after I write it,

I just take a video of me performing it.

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Uh, and then I post that on there.

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So the.

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You know, I think it's close to a hundred

songs there now that are kind of like

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that have been unrecorded that are, you

know, if people hear something, they're

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like, Oh, I want to hear that song.

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I was like, well, you have to wait until

it's released or you can just go to

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Patreon and all the songs are on there.

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Um, and it's, it's really

out of that community.

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I also post like a kind of behind

the song, just kind of talking

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about the process and the structure

and the more technical side of

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songwriting for, if there are any nerds

interested in that kind of a thing.

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Um, But it's a, it's a

fun little community over

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there.

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Jason English (Host): No, that's great.

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Will the new album have a kind of a

coherent theme, uh, that, that you've been

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thinking about, or will it be just to be a

collection of, you know, different things.

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Andy Gullahorn: Uh, I hope

it has a coherent theme, but

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it wouldn't be intentional.

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It's like, uh, the theme is just

like whatever's been happening in my

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life over the last number of years.

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And, and you know, when I look at

the songs, there are a number of

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themes that always seem to come up

in some way in any record that I do.

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Um, it's kind of, I hope, I hope it's

like all compassionate and, and, um,

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You know, there were a lot of songs and

not all of them that are made the record.

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But, uh, one theme that

I think about is, uh,

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I would say like rehumanization.

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Um, so like thinking about ways that I

would dehumanize other people and, um,

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trying to both for myself and for other

people, uh, learn to see myself and

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other people as humans, which means, you

know, messed up, uh, uh, and, uh, Uh,

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All I don't know if, I don't know if other

people would get that theme from listening

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to the record, but that's my hope, I

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guess.

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Jason English (Host): What's the, can

you give me a quick example of that?

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That's top of mind right now?

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Andy Gullahorn: I mean, an easy example

of it is, um, there's a song called, uh,

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Your Anger's Gonna Take You Places.

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And it's a song that I wrote about, I

can't remember what the guy's name is

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now, but the guy in Charlottesville when

they were doing the marches, the guy

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who got into his Dodge Challenger and

ran into the crowd and killed somebody.

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Um, those kind of situations where

You know, it's like, oh, what, I

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hate that that happens in our world,

like that, that kind of conflict.

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And, um, it's easy to be like, oh,

this guy is like a bigoted so and so

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comes from whatever, and he's marching

against this, and then he just goes

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and kills somebody with his car.

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And.

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Not taking away from what he's done, but

I'm like, I have a hard time imagining

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him waking up in Ohio where he was

from and being like, I'm going to go to

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this March and never come home again.

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You know, like there's a million

little things that happened in

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his life before that happens.

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And, uh, I just kind of think when we

say, Oh, what a monster, or look at

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something like Dylan Roof or something

like that, you're like, what a monster.

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It's like, when we say what a monster,

I feel like that's contributing

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to the problem that made him.

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The quote monster that he is.

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It's kind of like, the reason why Dylan

Roof can walk into a church and shoot

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people that he was just, uh, in a Bible

study with, or the reason why this other

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guy can get in a car and drive into a

crowd full of people, is that he looks

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at those other people as like, not human.

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Like, I don't, I don't think you

can think about them as humans like

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yourself and do that kind of a thing.

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There's some dehumanization that happens

that allows you to do something like that.

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In turn, I feel like, you know, my anger

and kind of disgust at the situation.

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I could be like, well,

those guys are monsters.

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They're horrible.

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They're like, whatever.

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So not like me.

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And if I, if I try to distance myself

from them by saying there's, there's

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nothing like me, then I feel like

nothing's ever going to change.

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So like the song anger is going to take

you places was really just kind of a

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fictional song thinking about this guy.

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Um, and what his life must've been

like, he's probably bullied as a kid.

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And I mean, I don't, I don't know what

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his story is, but it's just kind

of looking into this and, and ways

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in which Uh, he probably got the

messages that that his anger is,

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is the best thing to fight for him.

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Jason English (Host): Right.

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Andy Gullahorn: and, uh, yeah, so

not every song, song on the record

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is a story about somebody who's

done something, uh, horrendous.

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Um, But I hope that every song

is kind of trying to look through

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those same eyes, if that makes

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sense.

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Jason English (Host): no,

that's, that's interesting.

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Uh, it reminds me a little bit.

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I don't know.

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Do you ever listen to Sufjan Stevens?

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Andy Gullahorn: have listened to him.

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I haven't listened to any new

stuff, uh, but yeah, I do like

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Sufjan.

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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So this goes, this goes back

to the, I think the Illinois

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album,

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2005.

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Andy Gullahorn: Geysi, uh, the

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Geysi song.

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Jason English (Host): Yeah,

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So the last, the last lyric is basically

like, you know, it's John Wayne Gacy.

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The song is called John Wayne Gacy.

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It's about the serial killer,

you know, and it's very haunting.

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But the last lyric is basically like,

you know, um, if you look under the

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floorboards, uh, where he's, you know,

he's hidden, he's hidden the dead bodies.

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It's basically saying there's secrets.

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Under the floorboards and I might find

myself, uh, or I might realize I'm, I'm

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sort of just like him kind of thing.

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Right.

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So it's, uh, that when you were talking,

that reminds me of like that, you

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know, yeah, he was John, you could

say John Wayne Gacy is a monster.

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Cause he killed all those boys.

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And that was horrible, but there

was things that contributed to it.

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And at the end of the day, We're

not too dissimilar from, you know,

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from those, from those folks.

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Right.

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Andy Gullahorn: right.

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I think people get uncomfortable because

it's, you know, this world, a lot of

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people can see the world black and white.

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So it's either like you're

for him or you're against him.

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So it's hard to, it's hard sometimes

even for myself to be like, Oh, well, if

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I'm for compassion for John Wayne Gacy.

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That means I'm not for, uh, holding

him accountable to what he's done

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or I'm blaming somebody else.

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And, and when I look at the

reality of my life, um, Nothing's

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ever that black and white.

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So, uh, yeah, I hope, you know, you said,

uh, before we started, you promised you

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wouldn't ask me about politics, which I'm

not gonna talk about politics, but like,

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that's something that in this political

climate that I have to do, I have to be

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like, okay, this person who, who believes

strongly about something that I believe

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strongly the other side about, um,

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there are reasons why they believe

that, you know, and it's not just,

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I can think like, oh, the reason why

I believe what I believe is because.

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I'm really smart and logical and

I know what the right answer is.

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To some degree, the reason I

believe what I believe is because

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I grew up where I grew up.

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I live in the neighborhood that I live in.

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I've had the experiences in life that

I've had and Who knows what their life

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experience was, you know, so I have to

leave room for that, um, and leave room

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for seeing them as humans and, and leave

room for myself to grow and change too.

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Jason English (Host): would like

to ask related to this is one, it

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seems like in 2020, Uh, we're going

to go back to politics for a second.

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Artists in general were very

vocal about supporting a candidate

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or not supporting a candidate.

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Right.

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It, it seems like in 2024, I don't see it.

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I don't hear it as much as it felt

like it was in four years ago.

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do you agree with that?

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And like, why do you think

that is this, this time around

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are people just like fatigued.

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:

Andy Gullahorn: I think there's a level of

fatigue, but I also feel like there's, um,

347

:

personally, it's a, personally, it's

a mixture of fatigue and just feeling

348

:

like, it, it, these aren't like new

candidates that are coming up, right?

349

:

So like, it's kind of like,

350

:

if people were set in stone before,

they're even more set in stone now.

351

:

It's kind of like, well, it's, it's,

There's not a whole lot of debate.

352

:

Uh, I don't, uh, I don't, I don't think

there's any place where it's like,

353

:

Oh, Oh, let me listen to what this

person says about this, uh, policy.

354

:

Oh yeah.

355

:

Then I might vote for that person.

356

:

It's just kind of like, uh, people

in general are kind of immovable.

357

:

And I think that leads

to the, the fatigue part.

358

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

359

:

Andy Gullahorn: I know like for

me personally, it wouldn't be,

360

:

there's nothing somebody that

could say that would make me,

361

:

Change my mind, like vote for somebody,

362

:

Jason English (Host): Right.

363

:

Andy Gullahorn: on the

opposite side of it.

364

:

Like, I don't know what that

could possibly be to make me.

365

:

And I think a lot of people

366

:

feel that way.

367

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

368

:

Yeah.

369

:

Andy Gullahorn: I hope that,

that I would be open to change.

370

:

Um, but yeah, I

371

:

don't know,

372

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

373

:

Yeah.

374

:

No, it just,

375

:

it just

376

:

Andy Gullahorn: but I think

that all that leads to

377

:

fatigue.

378

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah,

yeah, It just feels different.

379

:

And then I guess back to the point you

were making about, you know, I think,

380

:

I don't know if you were to use the

word nuance, but the whole idea of

381

:

black and white and he's a monster.

382

:

He's not, you know,

and like, they're good.

383

:

I'm bad kind of thing.

384

:

Um, so I grew up in the church, I guess.

385

:

I know, uh, you're, you're a Christian

and you're part of, uh, Christian music.

386

:

You're, you're, your wife's part of

Christian music and like, you know,

387

:

that whole sort of, I'll call it a

subculture, not in a, in a bad way, but

388

:

you know, that whole sort of environment.

389

:

How much, how much do you

think the church has sort of

390

:

contributed to the lack of nuance?

391

:

Cause I think like for me growing up,

things were very black and white, you

392

:

know, and it was, uh, you know, very,

very good and bad kind of in, you know,

393

:

as I've gotten older, as I've traveled

the world for, for work or pleasure or

394

:

whatever, and meet other people from other

cultures and things, it's, there's a lot

395

:

of gray that I'm, I'm coming to learn,

396

:

Do you think the church has

contributed to like that, the

397

:

black and white view on things?

398

:

Yeah.

399

:

Yeah.

400

:

Andy Gullahorn: it, uh, totally can

and has and does, um, know, in the

401

:

kind of Christian music subculture,

which I don't really, I've kind of

402

:

been, um, in some ways associated

with, but never quite fit into it.

403

:

So I've kind of been associated.

404

:

It's like a, it's more like the

Christian music world is Kevin Bacon.

405

:

And I'm like a few people

removed at all times.

406

:

Um, but, um, just cause that, that I

didn't grow up in a, like an evangelical

407

:

church where that use kind of the language

that the Christian music subculture.

408

:

is like their, their native tongue.

409

:

So I always felt like my, I didn't

have the right language for it.

410

:

Um, and I, I grew up in

a Catholic church and.

411

:

There are all kinds of things around that.

412

:

But one thing I am grateful for about

that, uh, I feel like growing up in

413

:

the Catholic church for better and

worse, it was like there was more of an

414

:

acceptance of mystery in, in gray area.

415

:

Even if you just look at the way that the

buildings are made, you know, I grew up

416

:

in a church where there were dark corners.

417

:

Uh, you know, where you kneel down and

light a candle and, and like all the, the

418

:

building itself, wasn't saying everything

is knowable, you know, like in a, in a

419

:

room where everything is lit up and you

can see everything when there are dark

420

:

corners as a kid, it's like, oh, there's,

There's like mystery there and, um, so

421

:

I'm really grateful for growing up with a

sense that one, I can't know everything.

422

:

I don't need to know everything.

423

:

And not everything is knowable.

424

:

Like it's the mystery in the gray is okay.

425

:

Um, now the Christian subculture,

like Christian music is, I would

426

:

not say is very Catholic, um,

at least here in Nashville.

427

:

Um, but, um, And,

428

:

know, I, I think they're,

429

:

an interesting way to put it, I

was at a retreat this last weekend,

430

:

uh, with a pastor named Corey

Widmer out of Richmond, Virginia.

431

:

And, um, he was talking, at least I

think this was Corey, it could have

432

:

been Mark Charbonneau, I just want

to make sure I say that I was at

433

:

two different retreats the last two

weeks, so it's one of these retreats.

434

:

Jason English (Host): Right.

435

:

Andy Gullahorn: And, um, kind of

talking about if, like, a faith life

436

:

is like a song, there are a lot of

different, um, elements to that song.

437

:

And it seems like the church has

focused heavily on the lyrics,

438

:

making sure you know the right thing

and you're saying the right thing.

439

:

Um, but not thinking about the timing and

the melody and the harmony and, and, like,

440

:

all the things that are kind of like.

441

:

aren't about knowledge, right?

442

:

It's, it's like more implicit

than knowing the right thing.

443

:

Um, another way to put it is like,

there's a lot of churches where

444

:

it's like, it would just be heavily

focused on your thoughts and, and,

445

:

and knowing it's just on your head.

446

:

And it's not, what I love about a

liturgical church is like, you have

447

:

to kneel, you have to stand up.

448

:

I used to hate that as a kid.

449

:

It's like, why are we kneeling again?

450

:

I hate this, you know,

and I want to fall asleep.

451

:

But like, As I grew up, I was

like, oh, this is a way for me to

452

:

participate in some sort of worship,

453

:

just with my body.

454

:

Like, I don't even, I could be pissed off.

455

:

I could be pissed off at God.

456

:

I could be like, I don't want

to worship, but you know what?

457

:

My body's going to do it

when I don't feel like it.

458

:

And that's enough.

459

:

Uh, so it's not about

thinking the right things.

460

:

And so I think when we focus on

just thinking and knowing the right

461

:

things and not about more holistic

experience about just kind of, uh, you

462

:

know, our bodies and how we interact

with our community, um, then I think

463

:

it'd get really black and white.

464

:

So I think that black and white thinking

is really tied to this elevation of the

465

:

mind and knowing everything, which, you

know, that's not particular to the church.

466

:

I think that's everywhere, but the church

just, just reflecting, uh, ways that

467

:

it's like everywhere else in the world.

468

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

469

:

Well, it's cool.

470

:

The, your symbolism of the dark

corners on the church, there's

471

:

gotta be a song somewhere in

there with you talking about that

472

:

growing

473

:

Andy Gullahorn: Yeah.

474

:

I

475

:

Jason English (Host): there's a song

476

:

hidden

477

:

Andy Gullahorn: yeah, I think

there are, um, at least it's snuck

478

:

into a number of songs for me.

479

:

Cause I think about

480

:

that a lot.

481

:

Jason English (Host): Do you?

482

:

Yeah.

483

:

Yeah.

484

:

No, that's interesting.

485

:

And I, I would not that you need me

to agree with you, but I think there's

486

:

a, there's sort of Christian music.

487

:

Um, and I was, I grew up on Christian

music, you know, I grew up in, uh,

488

:

in, in the Midwest and, um, you know,

a lot of, a lot of history there.

489

:

Uh, but as I got older, what I started,

who I started to appreciate more were

490

:

sort of the guys that were, they would,

they dip their toe just enough to know

491

:

that like, A faith or a belief in God

was influencing them, but they weren't

492

:

completely immersed in the subculture.

493

:

So guys like Bill Mallonee, you

know, vigilantes of love, um,

494

:

Pierce Pettis, David Wilcox.

495

:

And then I think, you know, for me,

you know, which I want to ask you

496

:

about, because I think you contributed

to an album related to him, you know,

497

:

Rich Mullins to me was, He was in the

subculture cause he, he sort of had

498

:

to be, that's kind of how he grew up.

499

:

But I never thought he

was of it, you know?

500

:

And so it was like, there was a

small ring of people that I've

501

:

always respected and appreciated.

502

:

Andrew Peterson, I think

would fit in that, which I,

503

:

who I know you do a lot with.

504

:

And then just getting to

know you and your music.

505

:

It's like, okay, it feels like he's,

he's, he's dipping his toe in just enough.

506

:

Uh, but he's, you know, he's,

he's not completely washed in it.

507

:

And I, I respect that.

508

:

Andy Gullahorn: yeah, I, I feel the

same way about all those artists

509

:

for sure.

510

:

Jason English (Host): No, well, so that,

that leads me to a couple of the songs

511

:

I wanted to ask you about, and this is

really why I wanted to, to talk with you.

512

:

Uh, and it's related to some of

these, uh, some of these topics.

513

:

So I've got the lyrics, uh, of

the song called different now.

514

:

And, uh, this was, I think one

of the songs on the album that

515

:

you released seven years ago.

516

:

Is that right?

517

:

Yeah.

518

:

Andy Gullahorn: I think so.

519

:

Jason English (Host): So this, this came,

this hit my playlist, you know, like a,

520

:

like a random radio playlist, you know,

where they tee up songs that are related

521

:

to, uh, to, to ones you're listening to.

522

:

And, you know, I was.

523

:

I was like, okay, this sounds good.

524

:

You know, this is interesting.

525

:

And then I, I, I hear, I heard some of

the words and I, I, you know, obviously I

526

:

played it, played it time and time again.

527

:

And, uh, so I want to ask you, you

know, uh, I think I, I know what you

528

:

were saying, you know, in this, but I

guess my, my experience and listening

529

:

to it, just reflected on my life, it's.

530

:

When you grow up in the church,

right, there's a, uh, a certain

531

:

amount of pressure that I know I

felt to be perfect, you know, and

532

:

to, uh, to always be positive, to

always act like everything's wrong.

533

:

I'm horrible.

534

:

I'm better now, but I was horrible

for a long time at conflict, you know?

535

:

Um, and then all, and then this,

this whole notion of like, we're

536

:

all human and whether you call

it sin or not, like there's.

537

:

There's things that you, you have

impulses and desires or whatever,

538

:

uh, whatever those could be.

539

:

And that uh, we all have them,

but like when you're, when you're

540

:

in the church as a young person,

you, you can't talk about it.

541

:

You can't, obviously you can't do

anything and everything's sort of hidden

542

:

and it's very, it's very surface level.

543

:

And your whole point, I think is

like, you know, you're, you're kind of

544

:

setting the stage, but you're doing it.

545

:

You're different now.

546

:

And, uh, I just want to talk to you about

that sort of, uh, that transformation or

547

:

the evolution for you as a person and,

um, how that's reflected in the music.

548

:

So anyway, I don't know how off I

am or how on I am on, on that, but

549

:

that, that's what I got from it.

550

:

Andy Gullahorn: That's great.

551

:

Yeah, the, uh, I'm trying to

remember the lyrics to that

552

:

song now.

553

:

Jason English (Host): Well, I've got it.

554

:

I've got it here.

555

:

Uh, all right.

556

:

So, It starts, you know, the

good kid growing up, that was me.

557

:

I was voted most likely to be a priest,

by the way, I went to Bible school for

558

:

a hot minute, you know, like, all right.

559

:

So I was voted most likely to be a priest

and I thought I could not let anyone down.

560

:

Right.

561

:

Like I didn't want to let anybody down.

562

:

I, I just felt like I had

to be, you know, perfect.

563

:

My desk, my definition of the

way to be kind was to lose

564

:

myself and to shun desire.

565

:

I thought I had life figured out.

566

:

But I am different now and all

the little ways that I tried to

567

:

rebel well I kept them quiet.

568

:

I hid them well because it wasn't

real if it was never found.

569

:

And I looked at the world through

the eyes of a mask and compared

570

:

myself with some fuzzy math to

stake my claim on higher ground.

571

:

I'm different now.

572

:

I'm different now.

573

:

And then, and I felt the holy water

as a kid, but still the love of

574

:

God felt like a stranger had to

live and die to become born again.

575

:

Baptized in the fire of my failure.

576

:

I was like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

577

:

yes.

578

:

Andy Gullahorn: Oh, I'm so glad.

579

:

Um, well, yeah, starting off like,

you know, I have, um, a number of

580

:

songs that are kind of like this.

581

:

They're kind of like autobiographical ways

to kind of introduce myself on a record.

582

:

Um, and so that was true in

my high school superlatives.

583

:

One of them was that I was

most likely to be a priest.

584

:

Um, you know, I was a good kid,

like, and I, I think I, um,

585

:

The, like what you're saying, when

you find value and identity in being

586

:

the good kid, it's not anybody else's

fault, although it can be reinforced

587

:

by different people in your life.

588

:

Um, you feel like when you get the

positive reinforcement from that, you,

589

:

you do almost anything you can to keep it.

590

:

You know, and, um, so for me,

it's kind of like, like you, I

591

:

never did well with conflict.

592

:

I don't like conflict.

593

:

Um, and, uh, part of that, the being

different now, I think is, uh, the

594

:

process of being, uh, maybe the difference

between being a peacemaker and a

595

:

peacekeeper, like, like who's, who's

just, who doesn't want to make any waves.

596

:

Like, I think I will always want peace.

597

:

I will always want.

598

:

but peace isn't always absence of

conflict, you know, like sometimes

599

:

even if that's just within my own self.

600

:

So, um, to have a desire as simple

as like, I want Chinese food

601

:

tonight, you know, but somebody

says, what do you want to eat?

602

:

Oh, I don't know.

603

:

I'll do whatever.

604

:

Like, like in order to have peace,

it's just like, forget what I have

605

:

to do or what I thought I had to do.

606

:

It's just like, Well, I think I want

this, but like, they might not want this.

607

:

So I'm just going to be quiet.

608

:

I'm going to put a big wet

blanket over whatever that is.

609

:

And it's, you know, to say Chinese

food is like, that's a really

610

:

trivial example, but you do that a

million times throughout your life.

611

:

And then you start to do it

with everything else, you know?

612

:

Um, and.

613

:

So like for me as a grownup, people would

say, Oh, it's really important to, um,

614

:

to pay attention to and, uh, honor

the things that you love to do, like

615

:

what you want to know what you need.

616

:

You know, and, um, there were so many

steps for me of figuring out what it was

617

:

that I wanted or I needed, because first

I had to kind of convince myself that

618

:

it was okay to want or need something.

619

:

And then once I kind of get there,

it's kind of like waiting, be like a

620

:

whack a mole if a one or a need ever

came up in my life, I hit it down.

621

:

So then by the time I'm in my

thirties, it's like, if I have

622

:

a want or need, they're like,

I'm not going to show my face.

623

:

I'm about to get hit, you know?

624

:

So I kind of have to

create a safe spacing.

625

:

It's okay to have those and then

let them slowly come up and, and,

626

:

and start to pay attention to them.

627

:

Um, another thing, another way that

came out is like, uh, I thought there's

628

:

so many ways that I thought, um,

629

:

I always, I think I am a kind person.

630

:

I like to think I'm a kind person.

631

:

I care about people.

632

:

Uh, but there are lots of ways

in my life where I realized.

633

:

That what I thought was

kind wasn't kind at all.

634

:

Uh, it was more just

kicking a can down the road.

635

:

And, um, know, me not being in touch with

how I feel or what I want, um, really

636

:

isn't being kind to the people around me.

637

:

Cause then all that does,

I'm just burying stuff.

638

:

And then it comes out sideways.

639

:

Like when resentment and, and

anger and all this kind of stuff.

640

:

Um, Not, not that there's anything wrong

with anger, but like the resentment anger.

641

:

It would always come out of like, I

didn't know how to feel anger at like

642

:

a 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 out of 10.

643

:

I would just shove it down

until it was like a 9 or a 10,

644

:

and then it would scare me.

645

:

I'd be like, oh, I don't

want to feel that again.

646

:

So I just avoid that kind of stuff.

647

:

Well, that's not kind either.

648

:

So it's just been a process of,

uh, seeing all the ways that I

649

:

thought, oh, this is me being a

good kid, or this is me being kind.

650

:

And then a great question that comes

out of like, you know, 12 step community

651

:

or recovery communities, it's like,

well, how's that working for you?

652

:

Like, Is, do you see collateral damage

in relationships around you because of

653

:

the, Oh yeah, why is that happening?

654

:

Well, maybe it isn't the kindest

thing to yourself or to other people.

655

:

So it's been a, my life has been a

process of like learning how to look

656

:

at the data of my life and being

like, Oh yeah, I thought if I did

657

:

this, this is what would happen.

658

:

That's not really what's happening.

659

:

So maybe I should, maybe I need to look at

660

:

what I think being kind is, you

know, I don't know if that makes any

661

:

Jason English (Host):

Yeah, yeah, no, it's good.

662

:

Well, it goes back to, I think, to

the whole idea of nuance and, uh,

663

:

like, you know, being okay with living

in the gray a little bit, but also

664

:

you make a great point, especially

like in a relationship where you'd

665

:

rather forsake, uh, your own needs,

wants, whatever, just to keep peace.

666

:

You know, but that, that, like, that may

be okay in the moment, but over time,

667

:

you know, resentment builds, you know?

668

:

And, uh, so I think like that

plays out really, really heavily.

669

:

I know in, you know, whatever, romantic

relationships, friendships, whatever.

670

:

So, um, yeah, I just think like, for me, I

felt a lot of pressure being the good boy,

671

:

the good kid going to church three times

a week, you know, listening to Christian

672

:

music all the time, not drinking, you

know, all those, all those things and,

673

:

uh, You know, I think it actually impacted

me, uh, and how I faced adulthood and

674

:

I could handle and navigate adult life.

675

:

Uh, and I, it's, it's kind of a shame

because I know that like the intention

676

:

wasn't there to do that, but that's sort

of the unintended consequences, you know?

677

:

Andy Gullahorn: I would say that's,

that's a really common story.

678

:

You know, some, some of my, my music

has always had kind of a therapeutic

679

:

element to it because I've always, one,

I always like listening, the first time

680

:

I listened to David Wilcox, I felt like

there was like a healing element to

681

:

his music and I was like, I love that.

682

:

That's what I want to aspire to.

683

:

Pierce Pettis, same thing.

684

:

And, uh, so because of that, um,

some of the songs have made their

685

:

way into therapeutic spaces.

686

:

know, like different therapists have

asked me to come do music in the, in

687

:

that context, you know, and so what I

can say is I probably, you know, well,

688

:

multiple times a year now I'll go play

music and help lead, uh, small groups at,

689

:

at these, uh, kind of intensive therapy

690

:

retreats.

691

:

that are just for people who want to,

want to like do work on their heart

692

:

or people who are struggling with

addictions of any kind, drugs, alcohol,

693

:

sex, pornography, whatever it is.

694

:

And you get into the small groups

and it really doesn't matter what

695

:

the, the presenting symptom is, it's

getting them into the, you know,

696

:

this intensive therapy weekend.

697

:

You start doing like, family

of origin work or childhood

698

:

or trauma work or whatever.

699

:

And I will say that particularly with

sex or porn addiction, it's like, I

700

:

would, this is an uneducated opinion.

701

:

It's just out of my own experience

working with guys, like a great majority

702

:

of people who are really

struggling with that.

703

:

Um, Would describe themselves in their

role of their family as being the

704

:

good the good kid or the golden child

705

:

you could say oh, well somebody like

that thinks that You know, they have this

706

:

moralistic view about what they're doing.

707

:

And so they, they have an issue

with it and maybe they shouldn't.

708

:

Well, I don't, I don't care about that.

709

:

I'm just like their lives are becoming

unmanageable for whatever reason.

710

:

And, uh, I just see a lot of

people who grew up in the church.

711

:

And who are the good kids, or maybe didn't

even grow up in the church, but their

712

:

role in their family was the good kid.

713

:

And so it's kind of like,

well, what does that mean?

714

:

What does that data show me?

715

:

And it shows me that like, uh, there

are people in this world who aren't

716

:

covered in shame all the time, you know?

717

:

But, but when, when you're

the good kid, you get a, uh,

718

:

you have this allergy to it.

719

:

You know, it's kind of like, Oh, I just,

you're just trying so hard to avoid it.

720

:

And sometimes that's

why you're the good kid.

721

:

And, um, you know, so I'm, I'm not saying

it's a church's fault, although the

722

:

church can certainly contribute to it.

723

:

Um, But I just kind of think

that's the way that I came out.

724

:

Like I, where I was with my, in my,

the order of my siblings and whatever,

725

:

I just felt like I was supposed

to be the good kid, uh, to fit in.

726

:

And with that comes a lot of shame

and with shame comes a lot of hiding.

727

:

And with the hiding comes a lot of,

uh, trouble and unmanageability.

728

:

And, and, uh, So like what you're

sharing with me is like, yeah,

729

:

that sounds like really normal.

730

:

Like,

731

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah, yeah,

732

:

Andy Gullahorn: that being a good

kid, there are great things to it,

733

:

but it's also like, there's a lot of

recovery from that that needs to happen.

734

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

735

:

And a lot of maturity and growth that

needs to happen probably too, not too

736

:

late, but way late in life compared

to, you know, compared to other,

737

:

Andy Gullahorn: Yeah.

738

:

Cause,

739

:

Jason English (Host): other rituals.

740

:

Andy Gullahorn: Cause, that

strategy will work for a long time.

741

:

And then, you know, usually later in

life it stops, it stops working as well.

742

:

And you're like, Oh

gosh, what do I have now?

743

:

Like, that was my strategy

to live throughout the world.

744

:

And now I'm in my thirties

or forties or whatever.

745

:

And it's like, Oh, this is, that

strategy isn't working for me.

746

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah, that's that's

that's that's a great way to summarize it.

747

:

Um, so thank you.

748

:

So, um, so that was that,

uh, so thanks for that song.

749

:

Um, and sort of, I don't

know what it did to me.

750

:

It's sort of reinforced something for me.

751

:

It confirmed something for me and help

me understand that, you know, it's

752

:

okay kind of thing, but I feel like I'm

different now and I'm grateful for that.

753

:

Andy Gullahorn: No,

thanks for sharing that.

754

:

Um, that, that, uh, it is a

dream that songs would connect

755

:

with people in that way.

756

:

So

757

:

thank you.

758

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah, no worries.

759

:

what's interesting about you just again,

and kind of getting to know your music,

760

:

which I I'm fairly new at, like I said,

just a few months ago, you you're really

761

:

interesting because you go from like

a, so that like these therapy type deep

762

:

songs about maybe faith, family, whatever.

763

:

And then the pendulum swings to

like, I think some tongue in cheek.

764

:

Uh, type songs, right?

765

:

So like the, the teenager song

from your, from your last album.

766

:

Um, and then you've got the, the self

awareness song, uh, about the Enneagrams.

767

:

Um, so I think that's really interesting.

768

:

I guess, is that, is that how

your brain works is like, okay,

769

:

I'm going to be kind of the.

770

:

Deadpan, funny, a little bit of

a jokester in certain situations.

771

:

And then, you know, you, you swing

it back to the serious and does that

772

:

just come out in your songwriting?

773

:

Um, cause I think it's really

interesting sort of the, the,

774

:

the, the polarity of that,

775

:

Andy Gullahorn: Well, I appreciate

you saying that my brain works.

776

:

And I, I think, uh, that

is kind of, uh, maybe.

777

:

It would be

778

:

like those songs in juxtaposition

with each other would be similar

779

:

to like any conversation I would

have with friends or my community.

780

:

It's kind of like where you, you would

want to dive into some deep waters,

781

:

but also kind of like have fun.

782

:

And I've always, uh, appreciated.

783

:

Deep appreciation for like comics,

like standup comics, uh, or improv, uh,

784

:

artists like to me, that's terrifying.

785

:

Uh, but I just think it's like

a incredibly difficult art form.

786

:

Um, and the funny, if we're going to

call them funny, you know, funny songs,

787

:

those are in some ways the hardest

to write because it's, it's like,

788

:

There's a tightrope of trying to write

something that might get people to

789

:

laugh in a live context because if you

miss, you really miss and then playing

790

:

the song is like completely miserable.

791

:

Jason English (Host):

just up there exposed,

792

:

Andy Gullahorn: So, so my strategy for

that is to write songs kind of deadpan

793

:

so that if nobody laughs, I can pretend

like they weren't supposed to laugh.

794

:

Like it's like, there are a

lot of like escape hatches.

795

:

Uh, so I try to write something

that, um, you know, maybe people

796

:

will laugh at, but if they don't,

I can act like, Oh, I don't care.

797

:

You weren't supposed to laugh, whatever.

798

:

Jason English (Host): you just play it

799

:

Andy Gullahorn: but also

800

:

I, I have, uh, I never wanted

to be like my own artists and

801

:

travel and play my own songs.

802

:

I just want to write

songs for other people.

803

:

And then over the years, uh, you

know, found myself in places where

804

:

I was playing my own songs because

nobody else was going to do it.

805

:

And then found that I really,

I really love playing songs.

806

:

I love playing shows.

807

:

Uh, I love sharing songs with people.

808

:

And so the, those funny songs to me

are, are, I look at them like a tool.

809

:

Like I, I want to go same thing, like

a conversation with, with friends.

810

:

Like, I want to be able to go really

deep in the conversation and what

811

:

would happen in the evening of music.

812

:

And to me, having a song that

can get people to laugh really

813

:

accelerates that process.

814

:

It really kind of like, I feel like

if I can make people laugh, they

815

:

open up a little bit and then, then

we can go deeper and then we can

816

:

go really deep and go really sad.

817

:

We can go really dark.

818

:

Um, and then we can laugh again.

819

:

And then it's like, uh, I think

if I just came in and went dark

820

:

and sad, then some people are

gonna be like, that's not for me.

821

:

Um,

822

:

Jason English (Host): that's, a classic

tool of like a public speaking, right?

823

:

You, you want to open with a

creative, creative opener, get

824

:

some kind of loosens people up,

gets the familiarity kind of going.

825

:

And then you, then you, then

you crush them with truth or a

826

:

sales presentation or whatever.

827

:

So, uh, yeah, that, that's cool.

828

:

Yeah.

829

:

Um, Hey, what.

830

:

Andy Gullahorn: that like a song like,

like, like teenagers or something

831

:

like that, like that record, people

will come up after a show, like, Oh,

832

:

do you have teenagers on a record?

833

:

Like, yeah, it's on that record.

834

:

So like those songs are probably

ones that will sell more than other

835

:

songs will, but my hope is that they.

836

:

Get people to listen to the record

and then they would be impacted

837

:

by the other songs on the record.

838

:

Which is why, you know, people are like,

oh, you should do a record of just like

839

:

your funny songs and telling stories.

840

:

I was like, well, yeah, but I don't,

the funny songs are to serve a purpose.

841

:

They're not just to be, uh, they're on

their own, but that's also something

842

:

that David Wilcox did so well too.

843

:

He would always have some kind of

funny song mixed in with other things.

844

:

And so, uh, you know, I probably just am

copying my heroes like David Wilcox or

845

:

like John Gorka or somebody like that.

846

:

Jason English (Host): if I could read

some of the Enneagram stuff, cause

847

:

like credit to you for, you know, if

you're going to perform a quote unquote

848

:

funny song and, uh, and try to pull

it off, why not do it at the Ryman?

849

:

Right.

850

:

So, um, I know this is on YouTube

and you perform this, uh, at the

851

:

Ryman auditorium in Nashville, um,

the mother church of country music.

852

:

And again, for everybody listening

or watching, you got to look this

853

:

up, but here's, this is great.

854

:

And again, just the songwriter in you

is, uh, yeah, it's, it's fascinating.

855

:

So it starts out.

856

:

I think I figured out why I feel so alone.

857

:

I've grown too much in self awareness.

858

:

I'm sure that I'm right, but

the friends that I know aren't

859

:

involved enough to understand it.

860

:

I rid of my blind spots a long time ago

after reading some books that put me

861

:

in the know, so I don't need therapy.

862

:

There's nothing to fix.

863

:

I know what my Enneagram number is.

864

:

That's awesome, man.

865

:

Yeah, that's

866

:

great.

867

:

Uh, cause it's, it's, uh,

it's the Enneagram stuff.

868

:

It's the Myers Briggs.

869

:

It's, uh, it's all these things, right.

870

:

That people, uh, are, uh,

somewhat obsessed with.

871

:

Um, if I could, if I, if I do say

so, but, um, yeah, that's good stuff.

872

:

And I have to ask you what,

what is your Enneagram number?

873

:

All

874

:

Andy Gullahorn: Uh, my Instagram

number, I'm a nine on the Enneagram,

875

:

Jason English (Host): right.

876

:

Yeah, that makes sense, but it goes back

to what we were talking about earlier.

877

:

All

878

:

Andy Gullahorn: mean, the funny thing

is I, I, um, I love the Enneagram and

879

:

it's been like really helpful for me.

880

:

And my wife is like, did

a long training in it.

881

:

We've done all kinds of stuff and

taught stuff, but it does, you know,

882

:

as it, as it got more, I kind of knew

I was a nine back in high school.

883

:

My parents in the Catholic church,

the enneagram was always pretty big.

884

:

And, you know, back then anybody other

than the Catholic church was like,

885

:

Oh, that's, that's not Christian.

886

:

That's satanic.

887

:

Then all of a sudden it becomes popular.

888

:

And then all the other churches

like, Oh, we're totally into it now.

889

:

I'm like, okay, whatever.

890

:

But, um, the, uh, it's really

helpful, but I, I would.

891

:

You know, I would hear from

people like, Oh, I'm a, you

892

:

know, three with a eight wing.

893

:

And I'm like, well,

that's not really a thing.

894

:

And, uh, there was a reason why,

like early in the Catholic church,

895

:

they would only teach the, like

in spiritual direction, they

896

:

would only teach you your number.

897

:

They wouldn't teach the whole thing.

898

:

Cause they were like, then it will become

like a parlor game or something like that.

899

:

People are, people will like take a

little sip of it and think they know

900

:

everything, which is totally the case.

901

:

And I probably do the same thing.

902

:

But, um, so writing that

song was kind of like.

903

:

I liked taking something I loved.

904

:

I think it's a great tool, but

that's all it is is a tool.

905

:

Um, and then kind of making fun of it.

906

:

And the Ryman, I think I play that

particularly because the, a friend who

907

:

wrote the book, uh, uh, the road back

to you, which I, which is, I kind of

908

:

referenced at the end of that song.

909

:

I knew he would be sitting out in

the audience so that Ryman thing.

910

:

So I was just trying to

give him a hard time.

911

:

That was kind of

912

:

fun.

913

:

Jason English (Host): right.

914

:

Well, well done.

915

:

Um, and then the last one I just want

to talk about briefly, I think you, uh,

916

:

did you co write it with Jason gray?

917

:

It's called the death of a funeral.

918

:

Death without a funeral.

919

:

you, you, you all co wrote that?

920

:

Yeah.

921

:

Um,

922

:

Andy Gullahorn: Yes.

923

:

Jason English (Host): again,

that's, uh, so it's all kind of

924

:

related to the, to the topic.

925

:

Um, and I, I probably bring this

up more than I should on these

926

:

episodes, but you know, it's life.

927

:

So I was, I was married a

long time and got divorced.

928

:

And again, going back to the, the good,

you know, the good, being the good

929

:

boy, good man, whatever in the church.

930

:

I mean, divorce was

never an option, right?

931

:

Like it

932

:

just never an option.

933

:

And, um, and so again, like that, that was

a, that was a consequence of, you know,

934

:

Hey, you know, we have three beautiful

kids and we, you know, there's a lot of

935

:

good memories, but you know, there was

probably some frustration and misery for,

936

:

for, for a good, for a good bit of it.

937

:

But anytime something like that comes

to an end, Um, whether, whether it was

938

:

planned surprise or, you know, whatever,

uh, it, there's grief involved, right?

939

:

And you, you kind of

have to go through it.

940

:

And so like the song death

without a funeral is a brilliant

941

:

way to sort of capture that.

942

:

Andy Gullahorn: Yeah.

943

:

Well, first of all, I love Jason.

944

:

I love writing songs with him.

945

:

We've written a lot of

songs over the years.

946

:

through the whole process of, you

know, before he got a divorce and,

947

:

and, uh, just kind of walking with

him through years of trying to make

948

:

it work and then going through the

divorce and all the things that.

949

:

You know, we've written a lot of songs

about, about that in all different

950

:

stages of, of the marriage, the end of

the marriage, and after the marriage.

951

:

And, and I've always been grateful that

Jason is, was willing to be vulnerable,

952

:

talk about that kind of stuff.

953

:

And, um, so when we, I can't remember

like how that first started that song

954

:

in particular, but, um, you know.

955

:

As friends, we're familiar, I was

familiar enough with things that had

956

:

gone on, um, and just kind of through

him knowing the way that it felt,

957

:

uh, to be able to write that song.

958

:

And I will say that, uh, yeah, just

that feeling of how much the marriage

959

:

was celebrated on the front end.

960

:

Then you have this death of a

marriage and it's kind of like.

961

:

It felt like.

962

:

it just kind of like faded out

and like some people are afraid

963

:

to ask about it or whatever.

964

:

It's just like, uh, yeah.

965

:

And how to, how to grieve that.

966

:

Um, it's a very complicated thing to

grieve because there's all, you know,

967

:

all different ways of looking at it.

968

:

And, um, what I loved about that song

in particular is, is Jason was sharing

969

:

a story about that kind of ended up

being the last verse of the song about

970

:

going, pulling up to the house where

they lived and they raised their kids

971

:

and she doesn't live there anymore.

972

:

And the kids aren't there anymore.

973

:

And, um, just kind of missing

all of what their life was.

974

:

And, but there, there was actually an,

uh, an apple tree that they had planted

975

:

when they're, when a dog died, like

years and years, maybe 20 years before.

976

:

And, uh, he talked about seeing like

one last apple that was in that tree.

977

:

And, uh, Yeah, and I was like by the time

we got to the third verse I was like man

978

:

We've got to use that as a third verse.

979

:

He's like we you know, I don't know and

I was like But then I said, you know, I

980

:

I said you reached up and took the apple

I said, you know, you take a bite of it

981

:

and it says the taste was still sweet

They they're still it with all the pain.

982

:

There's still something sweet about it.

983

:

And honestly, he was like Yeah,

I don't think I can say that.

984

:

Um, and I was like, that's totally fine.

985

:

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.

986

:

And then it was sometime after that.

987

:

He was like, okay, I think

I'm, I'm ready to say it.

988

:

I think I, I think I can understand, I

can accept some of the sweetness of the

989

:

relationship, all this kind of stuff.

990

:

And it's, it's not totally eclipsed

by the pain, uh, of the divorce.

991

:

And, uh, you know, so it's, I

just appreciate that Jason, his

992

:

friendship, so that there's enough

freedom in the friendship for

993

:

me to say, Hey, what about this?

994

:

Is this, does this feel true?

995

:

If it doesn't feel true, does it feel

like something that you could grow into?

996

:

Is it something that you would

want aspirationally to be true?

997

:

Cause that's one thing

that David Wilcox told me.

998

:

He was like, you, you don't just want

to write songs about who you are.

999

:

You want to write into

who you want to become.

:

00:55:07,293 --> 00:55:10,303

So part of it is like, I want you

want to be honest, but is that,

:

00:55:10,303 --> 00:55:11,783

is that somewhere you want to be?

:

00:55:12,133 --> 00:55:15,133

And if it is, we can kind of write

it into being, or if that doesn't

:

00:55:15,133 --> 00:55:16,613

feel true, then let's abandon it.

:

00:55:17,103 --> 00:55:20,843

And, um, you know, he was

like, no, after, after a while,

:

00:55:20,843 --> 00:55:22,143

he's like, yeah, no, I get it.

:

00:55:22,203 --> 00:55:24,103

And I think I'm, I'm ready to say that.

:

00:55:24,313 --> 00:55:30,283

Um, so that song is a hundred percent,

uh, out of Jason's vulnerability and

:

00:55:30,283 --> 00:55:34,663

willingness to, to be open and, uh,

and to help other people grieve too.

:

00:55:34,673 --> 00:55:36,533

I think that song has been really

helpful for a lot of people.

:

00:55:36,853 --> 00:55:37,133

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

:

00:55:37,133 --> 00:55:37,363

Yeah.

:

00:55:37,513 --> 00:55:38,633

It's, it's incredible.

:

00:55:38,773 --> 00:55:41,403

Um, so yeah, again,

well done and thank you.

:

00:55:41,453 --> 00:55:43,153

Um, all right, cool.

:

00:55:43,153 --> 00:55:45,553

So just a couple of other things,

you know, we talked a little bit

:

00:55:45,553 --> 00:55:50,746

about, uh, your influences, uh, and

then the fact that you're not part of

:

00:55:50,746 --> 00:55:52,153

the Christian music subculture, but.

:

00:55:52,503 --> 00:55:54,213

You're in and around it, I guess.

:

00:55:54,633 --> 00:55:57,853

Um, and we, I did mention

rich Mullins earlier.

:

00:55:57,883 --> 00:56:02,143

You, uh, you played on the, uh, I think

it's called the Bellsburg sessions.

:

00:56:02,343 --> 00:56:02,713

Right.

:

00:56:03,263 --> 00:56:06,223

Um, just sort of a remake

of some of his songs.

:

00:56:06,223 --> 00:56:10,228

And I guess, uh, I would

imagine that was pretty much.

:

00:56:10,388 --> 00:56:13,078

Kind of through the, your relationship

with Andrew Peterson, right?

:

00:56:13,328 --> 00:56:16,288

You, you all covered, uh, hello,

hello, old friends, right?

:

00:56:16,728 --> 00:56:18,238

Um, what was that like?

:

00:56:18,248 --> 00:56:23,418

Just, do you, do you have, uh,

any, any peek inside the, uh,

:

00:56:23,438 --> 00:56:26,748

the process there of, I think, so

what that was, is he, he lived.

:

00:56:27,148 --> 00:56:30,288

For a bit in, in Tennessee, uh,

in a place called Bellsburg.

:

00:56:30,303 --> 00:56:33,508

The, the house is still there and the,

and the homeowner opened it up for a

:

00:56:33,508 --> 00:56:37,288

bunch of artists to come in and record

in the, in the living room and maybe

:

00:56:37,288 --> 00:56:40,288

other rooms of that house, you know, some

of his songs that, you know, since he

:

00:56:40,288 --> 00:56:41,938

passed away in the, in the late nineties.

:

00:56:42,578 --> 00:56:43,988

Like, what was that process like?

:

00:56:44,078 --> 00:56:45,148

Um, yeah.

:

00:56:45,148 --> 00:56:47,908

And you, do you have any kind

of cool insight into, in,

:

00:56:47,908 --> 00:56:49,528

into the, into the recording,

:

00:56:50,773 --> 00:56:51,193

Andy Gullahorn: Yeah.

:

00:56:51,243 --> 00:56:52,423

It was a lot of fun.

:

00:56:52,423 --> 00:56:55,083

I think, well, I think about Rich

Mullins, who I didn't really listen

:

00:56:55,083 --> 00:56:56,683

to much until I got to college.

:

00:56:57,333 --> 00:57:02,323

Um, but, uh, I would say

Rich Mullins was like a.

:

00:57:04,168 --> 00:57:07,948

A big factor in, in, uh,

connecting a lot of people.

:

00:57:07,968 --> 00:57:12,708

So like, uh, you know, when I first met

Andrew Peterson and Ben Shive, who we did

:

00:57:12,708 --> 00:57:15,768

the stuff at Bellsburg together, like.

:

00:57:18,248 --> 00:57:20,718

There's, there's this feeling in

college and high school, like, Oh,

:

00:57:20,718 --> 00:57:24,538

I'm the only kid who listens to

whatever, like in my community that

:

00:57:24,538 --> 00:57:27,898

listened to rich Mullins are the only

kid who listened to Mark Cohn or who

:

00:57:27,898 --> 00:57:29,318

listened to David Wilcox or whatever.

:

00:57:29,668 --> 00:57:32,938

And then I meet like Andrew and

Ben and other people in that world.

:

00:57:32,998 --> 00:57:36,488

And you find out when they grew up,

they were listening to the same things.

:

00:57:36,488 --> 00:57:39,118

And like, they're like, I'm

the only person who says

:

00:57:39,118 --> 00:57:40,808

like, uh, we find each other.

:

00:57:41,648 --> 00:57:45,578

And rich Mullins was like

that for a lot of people.

:

00:57:46,073 --> 00:57:49,523

And so that's, I think that's what's

most fun about that project is like,

:

00:57:50,033 --> 00:57:52,903

there's so many people that were

touched by rich, not just his music,

:

00:57:53,433 --> 00:57:57,323

uh, but definitely his music, but

kind of his way of being in the world.

:

00:57:57,583 --> 00:58:00,583

Like, like what you were saying

and to go out to his old house

:

00:58:00,603 --> 00:58:04,243

and, and, uh, I mean, it just,

:

00:58:06,363 --> 00:58:09,833

Out with Andrew and Ben and we played

that song on the road, you know,

:

00:58:09,833 --> 00:58:11,243

when we traveled together a lot.

:

00:58:12,083 --> 00:58:16,103

Uh, but when we recorded that one, we

hadn't played it in years probably, but

:

00:58:16,103 --> 00:58:20,833

it was fun to get up there and just, I

think we played it three times to record

:

00:58:20,833 --> 00:58:22,543

it and it's just so fun playing with them.

:

00:58:22,543 --> 00:58:26,493

And we actually just last month,

they're doing a second Bellsburg record.

:

00:58:26,523 --> 00:58:29,713

So I went out and did another song

with Andrew and Ben and that did

:

00:58:29,713 --> 00:58:33,453

another one with, with Jill, my

wife, we did, uh, we did a different

:

00:58:33,453 --> 00:58:35,013

version of, uh, uh, Brothers

:

00:58:35,013 --> 00:58:35,493

Keeper.

:

00:58:35,993 --> 00:58:36,973

And then, uh,

:

00:58:38,293 --> 00:58:42,303

Andrew, we did, uh, land

of my sojourn, I think.

:

00:58:42,323 --> 00:58:42,643

Yeah.

:

00:58:43,693 --> 00:58:44,183

Um,

:

00:58:45,073 --> 00:58:45,733

Jason English (Host): that's a great song.

:

00:58:45,753 --> 00:58:46,943

That's actually one of my favorites.

:

00:58:47,003 --> 00:58:47,873

That's, that's awesome.

:

00:58:48,533 --> 00:58:49,043

Um, yeah.

:

00:58:49,043 --> 00:58:53,263

So what, you know, yeah, just being in

that environment, remembering, I mean,

:

00:58:53,263 --> 00:58:57,113

it's been almost, I guess it's been close

to 30 years, uh, since he passed away.

:

00:58:58,063 --> 00:59:00,273

You know, it's pretty wild that

people are still sort of paying

:

00:59:00,283 --> 00:59:05,063

homage to him and it's, you know,

back to liturgical things, right.

:

00:59:05,063 --> 00:59:09,963

So that the album, you know, a liturgy, a

legacy and a ragamuffin band, the legacy

:

00:59:09,963 --> 00:59:12,033

that he's left is, is, is pretty wild.

:

00:59:12,113 --> 00:59:12,923

Um, and.

:

00:59:13,503 --> 00:59:19,103

It's also wild and also frustrating

for me because there's so many people

:

00:59:19,103 --> 00:59:24,703

in the Christian music, uh, sort of

subculture 40 years ago, 30 years ago.

:

00:59:25,173 --> 00:59:31,783

That had an ounce of the talent that rich

had, but yet got so much more recognition

:

00:59:31,783 --> 00:59:35,173

and probably earnings and all the things.

:

00:59:35,273 --> 00:59:38,733

Um, so it's, it's cool that he's

left such a great legacy and it's,

:

00:59:38,933 --> 00:59:42,373

obviously it's sad that he, he,

he died in that car accident.

:

00:59:42,383 --> 00:59:45,233

Cause I, I just, I think about

all the songs that we didn't hear,

:

00:59:45,273 --> 00:59:46,583

you know, in the last 30 years.

:

00:59:47,183 --> 00:59:51,313

Um, yeah, it's cool that, cause

he, he had that same sentiment, I

:

00:59:51,323 --> 00:59:52,523

think towards the Catholic church.

:

00:59:52,533 --> 00:59:52,973

I mean, he.

:

00:59:53,308 --> 00:59:57,208

I think he ended up being Catholic

towards the end of his life because he

:

00:59:57,208 --> 01:00:00,848

appreciated, I think some of the same

things that you, you talked about earlier.

:

01:00:00,878 --> 01:00:01,218

Right.

:

01:00:01,258 --> 01:00:03,328

Um, anyway, so that's cool.

:

01:00:03,358 --> 01:00:06,528

And I just, yeah, it's cool that

you got to participate in that.

:

01:00:07,423 --> 01:00:08,333

Andy Gullahorn: Oh man, I was honored.

:

01:00:09,168 --> 01:00:10,188

Jason English (Host):

Yeah, that's awesome.

:

01:00:10,288 --> 01:00:12,138

so a couple more questions

and I'll let you go.

:

01:00:12,138 --> 01:00:13,718

So thanks again for your time, I guess.

:

01:00:13,798 --> 01:00:16,238

And I know your, your wife's involved

is probably more heavily involved in

:

01:00:16,238 --> 01:00:19,178

the Christian music industry than you

are, but what, what do you think the

:

01:00:19,178 --> 01:00:20,758

state of Christian music is today?

:

01:00:21,388 --> 01:00:25,778

Um, it just, it just, it just, I

don't, I'm not really like listening

:

01:00:25,778 --> 01:00:29,468

to a lot of the, 30 years ago.

:

01:00:30,638 --> 01:00:32,538

What's the state of the

state do you think right now?

:

01:00:34,403 --> 01:00:37,453

Andy Gullahorn: I, uh,

there are two answers.

:

01:00:37,473 --> 01:00:38,383

One is.

:

01:00:38,978 --> 01:00:42,038

I'm probably not the person to ask

because I don't listen to music much at

:

01:00:42,038 --> 01:00:47,448

all in general, but I definitely don't

listen to a lot of Christian music.

:

01:00:48,038 --> 01:00:52,978

Uh, although there are some writers

who are kind of in that world that I

:

01:00:53,028 --> 01:00:55,368

think are awesome that I encounter.

:

01:00:56,233 --> 01:00:59,333

I don't, as far as the business side

of things, I'm so far disconnected

:

01:00:59,333 --> 01:01:01,223

from that world.

:

01:01:01,423 --> 01:01:04,533

I, you know, I do occasionally

get to write with different

:

01:01:04,533 --> 01:01:06,463

people who are in that world.

:

01:01:07,113 --> 01:01:10,353

And, uh, there are a lot of really

great people in that, in that

:

01:01:11,313 --> 01:01:13,173

business and a lot of great writers.

:

01:01:13,813 --> 01:01:20,793

Um, uh, the second answer, when

people think of, of like contemporary

:

01:01:20,793 --> 01:01:23,083

Christian music, they think about like

what they might hear on the radio.

:

01:01:24,263 --> 01:01:26,143

Um, and.

:

01:01:27,118 --> 01:01:30,308

People ask me a lot about like,

why is this played on the radio

:

01:01:30,308 --> 01:01:31,538

and this not played on the radio?

:

01:01:31,538 --> 01:01:35,388

And, and this is kind of an old

argument and I'm like, whatever.

:

01:01:35,388 --> 01:01:38,628

I just, nobody's ever gonna

play my stuff on the radio.

:

01:01:38,628 --> 01:01:41,488

I don't, so it's like, that's

just, it's just not my thing.

:

01:01:41,938 --> 01:01:48,098

But I will say that, um, you know,

for a long time they would do focus

:

01:01:48,098 --> 01:01:51,798

groups for radio stations, for

programmers trying to get songs, figure

:

01:01:51,798 --> 01:01:53,278

out which songs to put on the radio.

:

01:01:53,808 --> 01:01:54,008

And.

:

01:01:54,468 --> 01:01:57,598

For, for some of those times they

would on these focus groups, they

:

01:01:57,598 --> 01:02:01,128

would just take like 15 seconds of

a song and play it for people and

:

01:02:01,128 --> 01:02:02,298

say, how does this make you feel?

:

01:02:02,648 --> 01:02:04,978

You know, like, does it

make you feel positive?

:

01:02:05,428 --> 01:02:06,548

Does it make you feel sad?

:

01:02:06,558 --> 01:02:07,398

Does it make you feel whatever?

:

01:02:07,738 --> 01:02:11,848

But what I heard is that it's not

even just 15 seconds of a chorus.

:

01:02:12,028 --> 01:02:14,108

It's just like any 15 seconds of the song.

:

01:02:14,608 --> 01:02:18,498

So if you think about like the pipeline

of what that does to writing is like,

:

01:02:18,818 --> 01:02:22,468

if your goal is to get on Christian

radio, and in order to get on Christian

:

01:02:22,468 --> 01:02:27,343

radio, people have to have a positive

experience of, of it in any 15 second

:

01:02:27,343 --> 01:02:30,313

segment of the song, then you're

going to write a song that kind of

:

01:02:30,323 --> 01:02:32,473

feels this way the whole way through.

:

01:02:32,503 --> 01:02:36,533

And what that, there's nothing wrong

with that kind of song, but what you

:

01:02:37,033 --> 01:02:42,183

end up losing out on is any song that

would have a story arc, any song that

:

01:02:42,183 --> 01:02:47,108

would, that would be kind of on the

darker side, uh, Like you just lose that.

:

01:02:47,518 --> 01:02:53,478

Um, so that's just to say that the

typical Christian radio song is

:

01:02:53,478 --> 01:02:57,868

groomed to be just this one kind of

thing where, where you feel happy, you

:

01:02:57,868 --> 01:03:01,008

feel uplifted, and maybe that's what

Christian radio is supposed to be.

:

01:03:01,178 --> 01:03:03,238

So if you want something different

than that, if you want something with

:

01:03:03,238 --> 01:03:06,788

a story arc, or that might, you might

be able to connect with the darker

:

01:03:06,788 --> 01:03:11,388

side of things or pain or grief or

whatever, then you just have to look

:

01:03:11,398 --> 01:03:15,248

elsewhere for the music, which luckily

there's a lot of other places to look.

:

01:03:16,228 --> 01:03:17,328

Jason English (Host): I mean,

that makes so much sense.

:

01:03:17,328 --> 01:03:19,788

I can't even tell you like,

that's the, that's the best

:

01:03:19,788 --> 01:03:21,108

explanation I've ever heard

:

01:03:21,918 --> 01:03:22,268

Andy Gullahorn: Yeah.

:

01:03:22,408 --> 01:03:23,088

I mean, it is.

:

01:03:24,433 --> 01:03:27,853

It starts working backwards where

the writers are like, okay, I know

:

01:03:27,853 --> 01:03:28,753

this is what's going to make it.

:

01:03:28,753 --> 01:03:30,753

So we have to write this thing.

:

01:03:30,753 --> 01:03:32,053

That's what the labels are looking for.

:

01:03:32,053 --> 01:03:35,823

And then, you know, it's, that's why

when people listen to Christian music,

:

01:03:35,823 --> 01:03:37,423

it's like, Oh, it feels everything.

:

01:03:37,783 --> 01:03:39,143

Why does it always feel

so happy all the time?

:

01:03:39,153 --> 01:03:42,453

Well, because if there's any

segment where it doesn't feel happy,

:

01:03:42,653 --> 01:03:45,123

it's probably going to get voted

out of being put on a playlist.

:

01:03:45,133 --> 01:03:50,203

So, um, I, I blame the radio

programmers for that, but, um,

:

01:03:51,078 --> 01:03:52,648

Jason English (Host): but you know

what, but you know what, Andy,

:

01:03:52,768 --> 01:03:56,378

it goes back to the whole thing

that we started with, which is.

:

01:03:58,133 --> 01:04:04,283

Even that's a great example of not

being a promoter or willingness to

:

01:04:04,633 --> 01:04:09,373

be other than a good, a good person

in, in only emphasizing the good.

:

01:04:09,433 --> 01:04:14,403

right, So basically, basically that's just

a reflection of a, you know, the problem

:

01:04:14,403 --> 01:04:17,303

we were talking about earlier, which is

there's so much pressure on, you know,

:

01:04:17,323 --> 01:04:22,423

black and white, good and bad being good

and, uh, living up to this like crazy.

:

01:04:23,383 --> 01:04:27,843

Uh, you know, uh, threshold

of, of life and behavior.

:

01:04:28,363 --> 01:04:32,973

I mean that, that, what you just said

makes, I mean, uh, for 40 years, I've

:

01:04:32,973 --> 01:04:36,893

been like, why again, in general,

why is this stuff so bad and like,

:

01:04:36,893 --> 01:04:39,953

so surface level, you just said it.

:

01:04:40,023 --> 01:04:43,363

Cause there, there, there's a real

reluctance and hesitancy to kind

:

01:04:43,363 --> 01:04:48,503

of go deep and dark and actually

reflect real life, which isn't,

:

01:04:48,593 --> 01:04:50,293

that's not doing anybody any good.

:

01:04:50,373 --> 01:04:50,683

Right.

:

01:04:51,513 --> 01:04:51,673

Andy Gullahorn: Yeah.

:

01:04:51,673 --> 01:04:55,113

I haven't put those things together

like you did, but yeah, in a sense it

:

01:04:55,113 --> 01:04:59,103

does feel like Christian radio can be

reinforcement for being the good kid, you

:

01:04:59,103 --> 01:05:04,323

know, like, like before it stops working,

you know, like it's, it's just like, Oh

:

01:05:04,323 --> 01:05:06,223

yeah, be the good kid, be the good kid.

:

01:05:06,273 --> 01:05:07,283

We love it when you're the good kid.

:

01:05:07,283 --> 01:05:08,273

We love when you're the good kid.

:

01:05:08,643 --> 01:05:14,783

And so you shun desire, you start

hiding, you hide any of the darker sides

:

01:05:14,833 --> 01:05:17,143

because your job is to be the good kid.

:

01:05:17,663 --> 01:05:19,623

And you know, I, I get to.

:

01:05:20,253 --> 01:05:23,303

write with a lot of artists

who are in the Christian world.

:

01:05:23,823 --> 01:05:28,963

And I will say like a really normal

conversation I have is like feeling

:

01:05:28,963 --> 01:05:34,443

like they're buckling under the

pressure of maintaining an image or

:

01:05:34,443 --> 01:05:36,043

a message that's hard to maintain.

:

01:05:37,128 --> 01:05:38,788

Jason English (Host): Yeah, no, well said.

:

01:05:39,448 --> 01:05:40,508

Yeah, it's the good kid.

:

01:05:40,508 --> 01:05:40,828

Yeah.

:

01:05:40,868 --> 01:05:45,338

And hey, we can't talk about

trouble in a relationship.

:

01:05:45,418 --> 01:05:47,318

You know, we can't talk about addiction.

:

01:05:47,318 --> 01:05:49,568

We can't talk about it.

:

01:05:49,628 --> 01:05:51,698

You know, it's just like that's life.

:

01:05:51,718 --> 01:05:54,788

But like again, just all the

time I spent in church, like,

:

01:05:55,538 --> 01:05:58,238

it was always peaches and cream.

:

01:05:58,238 --> 01:06:02,748

And you know, if you, if you

accept Jesus, then, you know,

:

01:06:02,768 --> 01:06:04,978

basically there's life will change.

:

01:06:04,978 --> 01:06:06,138

And it's, it's, it's all good.

:

01:06:06,148 --> 01:06:08,708

You know, that's, that's, that's

my recollection of like Sunday

:

01:06:08,708 --> 01:06:11,328

school, you know, 40, 45 years ago.

:

01:06:11,328 --> 01:06:13,138

So, um, yeah, it's just interesting.

:

01:06:13,228 --> 01:06:13,568

All right.

:

01:06:14,078 --> 01:06:15,318

Well, that was the, I really

:

01:06:15,343 --> 01:06:20,723

Andy Gullahorn: also think as a, a level

of like expectation, just to throw this

:

01:06:20,723 --> 01:06:25,673

in there is like, if, if somebody kept

coming to me and saying, man, I can't

:

01:06:25,673 --> 01:06:30,163

stand McDonald's, they don't have good

salmon, you know, or a good healthy food.

:

01:06:30,163 --> 01:06:33,128

I was like, Yeah, that's just not

what McDonald's is going to have.

:

01:06:33,128 --> 01:06:36,218

So if you want something different,

there's a lot of other places you can

:

01:06:36,218 --> 01:06:40,718

go, uh, to get salmon that might not

be as easily accessible as McDonald's.

:

01:06:41,103 --> 01:06:45,903

But like, if you want to eat healthy,

like, I don't know why I kept going

:

01:06:45,913 --> 01:06:48,493

back to McDonald's hoping they'd

have something healthy for me.

:

01:06:49,193 --> 01:06:51,313

That's just not, that's not

how they make their money.

:

01:06:51,313 --> 01:06:54,003

So I can change my expectation

and be like, Oh, I'm not going to

:

01:06:54,003 --> 01:06:58,163

count on Christian radio to give

me the full experience of, of life.

:

01:06:58,163 --> 01:06:59,533

And I can find that elsewhere.

:

01:06:59,978 --> 01:07:00,328

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

:

01:07:00,418 --> 01:07:00,758

Yeah.

:

01:07:00,818 --> 01:07:01,078

All right.

:

01:07:01,078 --> 01:07:01,548

Good point.

:

01:07:01,968 --> 01:07:02,208

All right.

:

01:07:02,208 --> 01:07:06,378

So last question I was asking this

of everybody, um, obviously this

:

01:07:06,398 --> 01:07:07,888

podcast is called curious Goldfish.

:

01:07:07,888 --> 01:07:09,678

So I try to emphasize curiosity.

:

01:07:10,128 --> 01:07:14,038

Uh, so at this stage in your life,

um, you know, with your kids growing

:

01:07:14,038 --> 01:07:16,828

and, and where you're at, I guess,

what are you most curious about?

:

01:07:20,773 --> 01:07:21,783

Andy Gullahorn: Well,

that's a great question.

:

01:07:25,913 --> 01:07:28,423

I don't know what I'm most

curious about, but I'll answer

:

01:07:28,423 --> 01:07:30,783

that as as real time as I can.

:

01:07:31,953 --> 01:07:38,913

Um, I find that a lot of my, uh,

mental energy, or at least my

:

01:07:38,913 --> 01:07:47,293

daydreaming, uh, is around the ways,

thinking about the ways that, that

:

01:07:49,453 --> 01:07:51,393

my community is a part of me.

:

01:07:52,598 --> 01:07:57,748

Um, which kind of, you know, ties in

with other things we've talked about.

:

01:07:57,758 --> 01:08:01,798

But like, you know, if, if a lot of

people in the church were raised to

:

01:08:01,798 --> 01:08:07,778

think that like faith and salvation or

whatever you want to say is like such

:

01:08:07,778 --> 01:08:13,408

a, uh, personalized individual exercise.

:

01:08:14,148 --> 01:08:19,038

Um, I don't really look at it that

way, but I, I kind of like think

:

01:08:21,068 --> 01:08:24,488

if the people around me, if my family

and my friends and my community, you

:

01:08:24,488 --> 01:08:27,497

know, actually changed so much about me.

:

01:08:27,497 --> 01:08:28,938

They changed the way I

think about politics.

:

01:08:28,948 --> 01:08:33,678

They changed the, they actually physically

changed, uh, the, the wiring in my brain.

:

01:08:33,678 --> 01:08:39,428

So, um, uh, if that's the case,

then, then, uh, I'm curious about

:

01:08:39,428 --> 01:08:41,408

the ways that I still try to live.

:

01:08:41,408 --> 01:08:45,348

Like I'm a lone wolf as if I don't

need a community around me or that,

:

01:08:45,348 --> 01:08:47,768

uh, The community isn't changing me.

:

01:08:47,957 --> 01:08:50,388

Um, that I'm just not a

part of a bigger thing.

:

01:08:50,388 --> 01:08:56,957

So, uh, that translates into just

thinking of ways to, uh, curious about,

:

01:08:57,358 --> 01:09:03,898

uh, ways to enhance, uh, my time with

community and how important that is to me.

:

01:09:04,577 --> 01:09:08,167

Um, that's one answer, at least the

one that came off the top of my head.

:

01:09:08,707 --> 01:09:09,238

Jason English (Host): Well, thanks.

:

01:09:09,308 --> 01:09:09,898

Thanks for that.

:

01:09:09,948 --> 01:09:10,518

Thanks for sharing.

:

01:09:10,518 --> 01:09:10,928

That's great.

:

01:09:11,368 --> 01:09:12,148

Um, all right.

:

01:09:12,148 --> 01:09:14,028

Well, we're excited for

the new, uh, the new album.

:

01:09:14,038 --> 01:09:15,247

You better get it done this year.

:

01:09:15,398 --> 01:09:16,087

You can't change it to

:

01:09:16,198 --> 01:09:16,698

Andy Gullahorn: working on it.

:

01:09:17,428 --> 01:09:19,058

Jason English (Host): Um, but

yeah, enjoy the rest of your summer

:

01:09:19,058 --> 01:09:20,028

and I really appreciate it, Andy.

:

01:09:20,028 --> 01:09:20,278

Thank you

:

01:09:20,278 --> 01:09:20,747

so much.

:

01:09:21,348 --> 01:09:21,858

Andy Gullahorn: Thank you.

:

01:09:52,122 --> 01:09:55,108

You know, the good kid

growing up, that was me.

:

01:09:55,108 --> 01:10:01,863

I was voted most likely to be a priest

and I thought I could not let anyone down.

:

01:10:04,563 --> 01:10:10,063

My definition of the way to be kind

was to lose myself to shun desire.

:

01:10:12,023 --> 01:10:23,533

Life figured out But I And

:

01:10:37,773 --> 01:10:42,663

all the little ways that I tried to

rebel Well I kept them quiet, hid them

:

01:10:42,663 --> 01:10:50,663

well Cause it wasn't real, if it was

never found And I looked at the world

:

01:10:50,683 --> 01:10:55,088

through the eyes of a mask And compared

myself to the world with some fuzzy

:

01:10:55,088 --> 01:10:59,378

math to stake my claim on higher ground.

:

01:11:01,678 --> 01:11:08,663

But I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm different.

:

01:11:08,663 --> 01:11:17,217

Oh I, I, I, I, I, I,

I, I, I, I'm different.

:

01:11:17,217 --> 01:11:20,068

And I felt the

:

01:11:30,908 --> 01:11:35,438

holy water as a kid.

:

01:11:36,058 --> 01:11:37,648

Still the love of God.

:

01:11:37,648 --> 01:11:39,923

Feel like a stranger

:

01:11:42,148 --> 01:11:43,803

had to live and die to,

:

01:12:04,303 --> 01:12:09,278

I still have the, like I always

did, the capacity for violence.

:

01:12:10,788 --> 01:12:13,827

I'm asking God to take away.

:

01:12:16,428 --> 01:12:22,248

But I can look the world in the eye

and make my amends with an honest lie.

:

01:12:22,958 --> 01:12:30,522

So the ones I love can say.

:

01:12:30,522 --> 01:12:40,958

That I, I, I, I am different.

:

01:13:07,374 --> 01:13:15,394

The most beautiful people I know

Have suffered a measurable loss Found

:

01:13:15,394 --> 01:13:22,414

their way out of the depths Richer

for paying the cost Of having a

:

01:13:22,424 --> 01:13:30,409

dream disappear We're finding a hope

paralyzed, beautiful people don't happen

:

01:13:32,579 --> 01:13:32,969

overnight.

:

01:13:32,970 --> 01:13:43,906

I believe there is a place where we are

fully who we were always meant to be.

:

01:13:43,906 --> 01:13:53,556

How it happened, all I know is no

one gets there on a winning streak.

:

01:13:53,556 --> 01:13:54,199

You

:

01:13:58,689 --> 01:13:58,699

I

:

01:14:01,969 --> 01:14:07,179

didn't know how to forgive the

things that I couldn't forget.

:

01:14:08,629 --> 01:14:09,859

I wasn't ready to change.

:

01:14:11,889 --> 01:14:13,759

I hadn't failed enough yet.

:

01:14:15,229 --> 01:14:20,369

Self righteousness was a wall,

but when it came falling apart,

:

01:14:21,839 --> 01:14:23,929

Freedom was found in the breaking.

:

01:14:23,930 --> 01:14:38,664

I believe there is a place where We are

fully who we were always meant to be.

:

01:14:40,234 --> 01:14:40,434

All I

:

01:14:44,114 --> 01:14:45,864

know, no

:

01:14:47,943 --> 01:14:51,314

one gets there on a winning streak.

:

01:15:04,264 --> 01:15:12,854

So if it feels like you're losing again

and again, Not one minute is wasted.

:

01:15:19,064 --> 01:15:21,289

I believe it.

:

01:15:21,929 --> 01:15:23,449

Is a place where

:

01:15:25,559 --> 01:15:36,419

we are fully who we were always meant to

be kind and gracious forgiving and patient

:

01:15:38,419 --> 01:15:42,119

with compassion for the

wounded and the weak

:

01:15:44,439 --> 01:15:47,139

how it all I know

:

01:15:49,419 --> 01:15:54,649

is no one gets there on a winning street

:

01:15:57,099 --> 01:16:00,024

no one gets there on a winning

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About the Podcast

Curious Goldfish
A Community Where Inquisitiveness and Music Come Together. Inspired by the Mindset of Ted Lasso.
Launching in 2024, the Curious Goldfish Brand is inspired by two episodes from the First Season of the Apple TV+ Series Ted Lasso.

The “Goldfish” reference is about the importance of not dwelling on mistakes in life. In an early episode, Ted Lasso, the series’ namesake asks one of his players – after they were badly beaten in a play during training – what the happiest animal on earth is. The answer: A Goldfish, because it has a 10-second memory. Lasso encourages the player to forget the mistake and to not let it hinder his mindset. In other words, to “Be a Goldfish.” The “Curious” reference is born from another Season 1 episode where Ted finds himself in a dart match at a local Pub with a ruthless Football Club Owner. Lasso references a quote from Walt Whitman to “Be Curious, Not Judgmental.”

So “Being a Goldfish” is a great start, but curiosity is an undervalued trait in today’s world. We don’t ask enough questions; we don’t inquire enough about each other and about life. So I want people to be “Curious Goldfish.”

The initial premise of the podcast will center around my curiosity about music. I can’t sing. I don’t play a musical instrument, but I am inspired by artists who are vulnerable enough to put their thoughts down and then share them with the entire world. I’m curious about the songwriting process; I’m curious about a musician’s journey; I’m curious about the business of music; I’m curious about who or what inspires a sad song, a love song - and everything in between.

Though the initial premise is music, we will likely spend time discussing and highlighting all-things Ted Lasso. In its three seasons, it inspired the host in so many ways (work, personal, relationships etc).

The musical focus of the Curious Goldfish Podcast will center around up-and-coming artists primarily in rock, roots, folk, Country and Americana genres. Not every aspiring musician will earn $100 million from Spotify streaming like Taylor Swift. Our goal is to shine a light on those artists who have as few as 100 monthly listeners to those with more than 100,000. Their stories deserve to be heard because your music can inspire, and it’s time you had a chance to share them.
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About your host

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Jason English

Tech Exec by Day, Music Lover Day and Night. Former Journalist who is trying to be a middle-aged William Miller from the Movie Almost Famous. Also, Ted Lasso changed his life...so there's that.