A Chat with Kelly Willis

Kelly Willis: 00:00:07

These days I say yes a lot to things.

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Maybe it was last summer.

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I called it my summer of yes.

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And I decided to just, because my natural

instinct was to say no to everything,

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just like protect myself, isolate myself.

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For many years, I think maybe because

of all the kids I had and just the, you

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know, exhausting it was, I kind of like

to have time where I was just quiet.

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And so I got into the habit of saying no.

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And I, I decided to take a summer

where if I got invited to do something.

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My instinct would be no and I would

have all the reasons to say no and

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then but I would tell myself you

have to wait Until you come up with a

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reason to say yes, and then you have

to say yes So I said yes to all these

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things that came along and it was the

best thing that I could have done.

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Jason English (Host): Welcome to

Curious Goldfish, a podcast community

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where music and curiosity come together

through interesting conversations

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with the music makers of our world.

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I'm your host, Jason English.

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You can find Curious Goldfish and all the

major podcasts and social media platforms.

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And of course we have all of our

content on our website, curiousgoldfish.

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com.

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It was a real honor to be able to

talk with Kelly Willis, a 35 year

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veteran of the music industry.

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Her perspective is obviously unique,

but the most refreshing aspect

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of my chat with her is seeing how

excited she is for what's to come.

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It's almost like she's hit

the reset button at age 55.

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And you can see the excitement in

her eyes and hear the anticipation

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in her voice when she talks

about the rest of this year.

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It all starts with a newly formed

female super trio, the Wonder Women of

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Country, which she tells us all about.

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She also performs a song called Looking

Forward to Looking Back, which is a

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fitting summary of where she sits in

her life and career in early: 2024

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Here's Kelly Willis, the

Queen of Austin, Texas.

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Let's dive in.

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Kelly Willis.

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So nice to meet you.

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Kelly Willis: It's nice to meet you, too.

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Jason English (Host): I mean, here we are.

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We're at a beach house

overlooking the Gulf.

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The sun is out.

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Kelly Willis: stunning.

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It's so beautiful.

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Jason English (Host): I mean, I know

Austin is awesome for a lot of reasons,

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but Austin doesn't have this, does it?

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Kelly Willis: No and the Texas

Beach does not look like that.

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Jason English (Host): It's

the middle of January.

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It's a little chilly, but come on.

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Kelly Willis: Yeah, it's okay.

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I love a cold beach.

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I think that's a whole, a whole

nother kind of vibe, vacation.

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Love it

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Jason English (Host): a scarf on.

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It's, it, it, it all fits.

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Kelly Willis: Yeah, I love it.

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Jason English (Host): How often

have you been to the 30A festival?

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Kelly Willis: is my first time.

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Yeah.

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Jason English (Host): did,

how did that come about?

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Kelly Willis: I don't know.

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I don't know why they asked me.

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I'm glad they did.

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I feel really honored to be

included as a songwriter.

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I've always considered myself

more of a singer, but I do write

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songs, and um, so yeah, I'm just,

I'm glad that that it happened.

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I don't know how these things happen.

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I just get a phone call and then

I get to play decision maker.

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I get to be this powerful God.

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Will I or won't I?

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Yes, I will.

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Usually I will.

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Jason English (Host): Well, it's

probably like this podcast interview.

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You're like, Oh, I guess

I'll show up and do

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Kelly Willis: exactly.

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I'm like, well, that could be fun.

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These days I say yes a lot to things.

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I am.

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Um, maybe it was last summer.

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I called it my summer of yes.

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And I decided to just, because my natural

instinct was to say no to everything,

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just like protect myself, isolate myself.

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For many years, I think maybe because

of all the kids I had and just the, you

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know, exhausting it was, I kind of like

to have time where I was just quiet.

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And so I got into the habit of saying no.

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And I, I decided to take a summer

where if I got invited to do something.

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My instinct would be no and I would

have all the reasons to say no and

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then but I would tell myself you

have to wait Until you come up with a

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reason to say yes, and then you have

to say yes So I said yes to all these

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things that came along and it was the

best thing that I could have done.

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I just I made friends.

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I did things I wrote

songs I had I was on gigs.

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I made connections.

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It was just wonderful and so I

don't say yes to everything now,

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but I try to say yes to most things.

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Yeah, I mean, that's, that's

one of the perks of being

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in a career for a long time.

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At some point you can make, you

can shape it the way you like.

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Um, so yeah, I mean, I'm not going

to do everything, but, uh, you

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know, I'm, I'm much more open.

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Jason English (Host): What

was the most surprising?

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Yes, that you, uh, that turned out

in a way that you didn't anticipate.

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Kelly Willis: I went on a writer's retreat

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Jason English (Host): Oh my gosh.

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Kelly Willis: I would never do that

cause I have a lot of social anxiety, so

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just the idea of being with people that

much, and co writing is a scary thing.

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Co writing is so vulnerable and it,

to me, it feels like it could go off

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the tracks and be awkward and weird,

just like a lot of potential disaster.

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But I did that and it was with these

other women and I loved all of them

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and we had a great time and we wrote

some good songs and, uh, I just.

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Realize that I could do it.

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I had just been afraid to do it,

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Jason English (Host): That's incredible.

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Take me through like, you know,

a snapshot of like an hour

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or two in that environment.

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Do you, do you come in with ideas?

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Do you put it on a whiteboard and say, you

know, that kind of could work with this?

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Does one person come in with something

half baked and you kind of help refine it?

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How does

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Kelly Willis: Yeah, I mean there

was just a group of us and we would

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all just kind of look around and

go You want to write one together?

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It was really not that organized.

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It was just kind of who and Then

ultimately there'd be like two people who

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were like, well, we're the only two left.

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Let's go right together.

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So it's very casual and for me I

came in with some ideas and The other

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girls helped me finish those songs

I don't really have a strong skill

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in helping other people finish their

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Jason English (Host): Right.

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Kelly Willis: Um,

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Jason English (Host): different, right?

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That's a different,

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Kelly Willis: it's very

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Jason English (Host): different skill.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Kelly Willis: Um, for me anyway, uh,

I don't think on my feet that fast.

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I like to sit and mull and,

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because

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tinker with it and mess with it

and then completely scrap it.

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Come back with something

a little different.

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And so, usually I've done a lot

of that before I bring a song in

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to get someone to help me with it.

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out of

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to help someone finish their

song is a it's just a different

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skill set I mean, I've

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Jason English (Host): song as well.

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Kelly Willis: huh?

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Jason English (Host): That's the

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Kelly Willis: Oh god, definitely the

heartbreak I mean, that's the stuff you

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remember.

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Jason English (Host): the layup, yeah.

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Kelly Willis: remember the

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good things that have happened to me.

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Are you kidding?

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Jason English (Host): Don't say that.

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Right.

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It's just about,

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Kelly Willis: They're just

they just fly by but the the

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bad stuff sticks with you and

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my Oh

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Painful stuff the stuff you want to

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a queen.

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just emote But yeah, personal

experience and some little thing will

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happen like I'm, I've written this

song called From a King to a Queen.

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And it's just about, uh, I got

divorced two years ago and I had

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to get rid of my, this giant bed.

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Jason English (Host): That's amazing.

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Kelly Willis: I know.

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And I'm just thinking about it.

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I was like,

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so just little things like that

are the stuff that gets me.

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Going.

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Jason English (Host): really good, yeah.

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Kelly Willis: Thanks.

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Thanks.

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It's not ready for prime

time yet, but it exists.

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Jason English (Host): So one thing I

forgot to mention, we're here at this

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music festival and I'm talking to,

you know, a few artists and you talked

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about singing and then songwriting.

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One of the artists I interviewed

yesterday, his name's Matt Killough.

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I don't know if you know who he

is, but he's, , a newer artist.

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He has one album.

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He lives in Nashville now.

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He's from Georgia.

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And he was just, you know, we're

getting ready for the interview and he's

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like, so who else are you talking to?

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And I mentioned a couple of people

and I was like, Oh yeah, I'm

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talking to Kelly Willis tomorrow.

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And he's like, wait, what?

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And he said, listen, for me, it's

Patty Loveless and it's Kelly Willis.

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Kelly Willis: my god, that's

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amazing.

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Jason English (Host): So I wanted

to tell you that because I was

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like, well, she'd love to hear

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Kelly Willis: Yeah, that's so

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sweet.

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Jason English (Host): mean, Patty

Loveless just got into the hall of

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fame,

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Kelly Willis: Yes, I'm and I was on

MCA when Patty Loveless was there, so I

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got to see it her up close in a person.

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She's

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amazing

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Jason English (Host): You talk about

relationships and love languages,

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you know, words of affirmation

are always like important.

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so

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Kelly Willis: cool, it's very nice,

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Jason English (Host): think it's important

to tell people, uh, when you hear

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good things.

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And so, you know, I thought you'd get

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Kelly Willis: I'll

completely forget that of

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course

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I'll be gone

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Jason English (Host): can't forget that.

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Kelly Willis: No,

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Jason English (Host):

Don't, don't be a goldfish.

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Like there's certain, there's

certain times when you should be

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a goldfish where, you know, forget

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mistakes and stuff, but

things you should hold on

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Kelly Willis: maybe I should write it

down and have a little mirror affirmation.

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Jason English (Host): Yeah, exactly.

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exactly.

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So you mentioned MCA, which

leads me to a thing about eras.

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Are you Taylor Swift fan?

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Kelly Willis: I'm in this funny little

spot that I've not like a crazy Taylor

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Swift fan, but I'm, I don't have

anything against her, but I'm impressed.

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Incredibly

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impressed with her.

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Jason English (Host): Well, I was going

to ask you, you know, you've had this

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incredible career and your perspective

on what she's been able to do, at 32

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and coming up through through country.

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And now

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Kelly Willis: I know

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Jason English (Host): mean, what,

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Kelly Willis: she blows me away.

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I feel like she's kind

of like a different,

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she's

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nobody like that.

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The people who are that talented,

that young and it's like she's like

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superman from some other planet, right?

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We can't compare ourselves to her.

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She's unique and

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Yeah, it blows my mind what she's

done to go from country to pop

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and to be so powerful and yet,

vulnerable and all that stuff.

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It's really impressive.

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And to be that good, that

young is crazy to me.

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Um, yeah,

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Jason English (Host): but I was blown

away because she had 75, 000 people in the

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palm of her hand and it was like ultimate

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power.

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And I'm like, good for her,

you know, like good for her.

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So,

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Kelly Willis: Yeah, she does it all.

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Jason English (Host): Yeah, Anyway,

I bring that up because, she had the

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eras tour and, you've had this career.

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You, I think you've had

your own eras, right?

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So you mentioned MCA, that's

probably maybe the first

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era.

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Is that fair?

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Yeah,

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And I'm not going to get these

in the right sequential order,

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but there was MCA that you went,

uh, you do a little rockabilly.

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Is that part of the same era or is that

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its

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own

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Kelly Willis: say I was rockabilly first.

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So it was a rockabilly

and a rockabilly band.

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And then I moved to from the

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D.

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C.

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area and I moved to Austin.

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And, within two years from living

in Austin, I got my MCA deal.

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So I was

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20 when I got that

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Jason English (Host): And

that was like in the late

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eighties, right?

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89 or 90.

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Yeah,

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Kelly Willis: and I think

my record came out in 90.

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So, rockabilly first, and

then much more country.

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Um, I'm a

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second.

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Jason English (Host): And then

yet you're a mother, right?

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And

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you're still a mother, but

like there was probably

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raising,

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raising your son.

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And you know, that's

probably its own era, right?

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Kelly Willis: I got my RICO record

deal and I made this, what I

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deserve record before I had kids.

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And I, I'd probably call that a

different era because that was much

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more of an independent kind of country

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folk

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thing for me and where I

really started writing songs.

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And then I got married

and had kids and then I,

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I had four

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kids in that time and

that was survival mode.

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So that was

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different.

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Jason English (Host): All in.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Right.

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Kelly Willis: because that

was so all consuming and

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difficult.

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That's when my husband and I started

performing together and more of a

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duo, um, just, you know, to keep it all

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in house kind of, you

know, it just kind of

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worked better that way.

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Jason English (Host): that

time you and Bruce that that's

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probably its own era as well.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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Yeah, What's the era today?

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Kelly Willis: You know,

it's funny because, um,

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so I'm 55 and I am having the most fun.

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I am loving my career more now than

ever, and I never would have thought

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that, and I've been out doing these shows.

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I've been,

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So my kids, I still have one at

home, but three of them are off in

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college, starting their lives, and,

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I've been able to spend more time getting

back into touring and being on the

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road and, uh, just gigging a lot more.

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So I've been doing that just my

solo stuff, but also with these

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other two women, Brennan Lee and

Melissa Carper, this trio with them.

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That is so fun.

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, they're both so talented, but I

think because we're all three,

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we have individual bands where

our own front people, right?

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That everyone in the band is so

invested in what we're doing.

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Um, no one's a gun for hire that's

wondering, if they're going to

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get paid for doing this podcast.

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You know what I mean?

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Like they're, which they have every

right to that's their, that's their gig.

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But the three of us are

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just like, well, what should we do now?

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And equally just

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enjoying it and doing whatever

bending over backwards because

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it's our thing.

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Jason English (Host): Do

you play each other's songs?

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do, you play your own

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Kelly Willis: we get up and So Melissa

plays stand up bass and Brennan is

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a badass guitar player.

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She plays all the lead parts and mandolin.

342

: 00:14:27

and

343

: 00:14:27

then I just play all the strummy,

swishy stuff that blends it

344

: 00:14:30

together.

345

: 00:14:31

Um, and we play each other's songs and

346

: 00:14:34

sing harmonies on each song.

347

: 00:14:36

And

348

: 00:14:36

Jason English (Host):

There a name for the trio?

349

: 00:14:37

Kelly Willis: yes, we just named it.

350

: 00:14:39

We're, uh, Wonder

351

: 00:14:40

Women of Country.

352

: 00:14:41

I know!

353

: 00:14:44

Like two weeks ago.

354

: 00:14:45

Cause we did it, we just

355

: 00:14:46

recorded a little EP and we're we're

356

: 00:14:49

like, we have to have a

name, you guys, and Brennan,

357

: 00:14:52

Brennan goes, uh, how about Wonder Woman

358

: 00:14:54

of Country, and we're all like, yes.

359

: 00:14:56

Jason English (Host): see the

I can see the merch right now.

360

: 00:14:58

Kelly Willis: there's so

361

: 00:14:58

many merch

362

: 00:14:59

Jason English (Host):

there's so many options.

363

: 00:15:01

Well, that's cool.

364

: 00:15:02

So what you're having the most fun

365

: 00:15:03

now, I guess

366

: 00:15:04

which era

367

: 00:15:06

shape shape shaped you will shape

368

: 00:15:07

you the most like you that you're like

okay, well, I wouldn't be who I was today.

369

: 00:15:11

I'm sure they all contributed to it.

370

: 00:15:12

But

371

: 00:15:12

like what's what stands

372

: 00:15:13

out?

373

: 00:15:14

Mm

374

: 00:15:16

Kelly Willis: to it, but, um, I

think when I started performing

375

: 00:15:20

with Bruce, my ex husband, that, um,

376

: 00:15:24

all of a sudden the pressure

was divided in half.

377

: 00:15:27

So I was on stage, every aspect of

it was more fun because there was

378

: 00:15:33

somebody there who was going to catch

any moment where something might

379

: 00:15:37

Just go wrong or I,

you know, sometimes you

380

: 00:15:40

just

381

: 00:15:41

there

382

: 00:15:42

blank space out, just stuff happens.

383

: 00:15:44

And knowing that.

384

: 00:15:46

There was someone else there that

was equally and someone else was

385

: 00:15:49

going to talk or tell a story or

386

: 00:15:51

thing I sing.

387

: 00:15:53

You know, just,

388

: 00:15:55

I don't have to sing this next song.

389

: 00:15:56

I get to do the harmony part, which

is so fun to sing the harmony part.

390

: 00:16:00

It just divided the

workload and I was able to

391

: 00:16:05

learn from him

392

: 00:16:06

because he had a completely

different style of performing.

393

: 00:16:10

It was just a lot more fun.

394

: 00:16:12

I was always really nervous,

really worried about

395

: 00:16:14

being perfect when it was just

396

: 00:16:17

Jason English (Host):

Yeah, yeah, that's a lot of

397

: 00:16:18

Kelly Willis: singing perfectly, all

the things and performing with him,

398

: 00:16:23

I was able to see how to be more,

to have a better time up there and,

399

: 00:16:31

it was just a whole, it was very

400

: 00:16:34

great learning experience about

just stepping inside somebody else's

401

: 00:16:40

thing and seeing a

completely different side

402

: 00:16:44

Perspective.

403

: 00:16:45

Jason English (Host): That's neat.

404

: 00:16:45

Are

405

: 00:16:48

you able to apply that to the

Wonder Women of Country now as well?

406

: 00:16:53

It probably still applies, right?

407

: 00:16:54

Kelly Willis: Oh Yeah.

408

: 00:16:54

It changed everything.

409

: 00:16:55

Even my solo stuff, just even without

other people, I just have more fun.

410

: 00:16:59

Somewhere along the way, I learned that

it didn't really matter how you sang.

411

: 00:17:04

Like, you know, the people, my favorite

people that are singing, I never

412

: 00:17:09

think about that they're singing.

413

: 00:17:10

If you think of Mick Jagger,

414

: 00:17:11

you're not thinking about

if he's hitting the notes.

415

: 00:17:14

beautifully.

416

: 00:17:15

He's just singing.

417

: 00:17:17

He's just telling

418

: 00:17:18

you this story.

419

: 00:17:18

He's just

420

: 00:17:20

embodying that song.

421

: 00:17:22

And so I stopped

422

: 00:17:23

worrying about that.

423

: 00:17:24

Jason English (Host): Yeah, they're

not holding up numbers, you know,

424

: 00:17:27

when you listen to it, right?

425

: 00:17:28

Yeah.

426

: 00:17:29

Yeah.

427

: 00:17:30

Kelly Willis: So Yeah.

428

: 00:17:31

that changed for me.

429

: 00:17:32

Jason English (Host): No, that's great.

430

: 00:17:33

So you mentioned the

anxiety, obviously as a

431

: 00:17:37

music fan, you make assumptions about

artists and on stage and recording

432

: 00:17:42

records.

433

: 00:17:43

It's just wild

434

: 00:17:43

to, to learn and, you know,

understand that artists struggle with.

435

: 00:17:49

I don't know if it's, you know, stage

fright or social phobia or all these

436

: 00:17:53

things, but it's a real thing, I guess.

437

: 00:17:55

Tell me more about that and has

it changed through the years?

438

: 00:17:59

Is it,

439

: 00:18:00

you know, yeah, tell

440

: 00:18:01

Kelly Willis: Well, I used to have

pretty severe social phobia, as a young

441

: 00:18:06

person.

442

: 00:18:06

And, if you talk to me, I might cry.

443

: 00:18:10

Like it was very difficult for

444

: 00:18:12

me, not around people that I knew that

were my friends and trusted people.

445

: 00:18:17

I

446

: 00:18:17

was, whatever my personality is, was,

would be full on, but, in most settings,

447

: 00:18:25

,

it was intense and

448

: 00:18:26

Jason English (Host): Is it one on

one, was it one on one conversations?

449

: 00:18:29

Or was it just, is the

stage just a different

450

: 00:18:31

environment and you were

451

: 00:18:32

able to kind of like work through

452

: 00:18:34

it?

453

: 00:18:34

Or was it also

454

: 00:18:35

that?

455

: 00:18:35

Kelly Willis: well, it was a

lot of one on one, a lot of.

456

: 00:18:38

All the just different little

exchange moments in life.

457

: 00:18:41

Like if you're at the grocery

store and you're in line and you

458

: 00:18:43

know in a minute you're going

to have to talk to the checkout

459

: 00:18:46

person.

460

: 00:18:47

Terrifying.

461

: 00:18:49

So it's those kinds of little things.

462

: 00:18:51

On the stage you could

sort of, disassociate.

463

: 00:18:54

You could be in this little world, right?

464

: 00:18:56

You're presenting something.

465

: 00:18:58

You're pretending in a way.

466

: 00:19:00

The guys used to tease me because for

years, I, anything I said on stage

467

: 00:19:05

would end with a, and it was really fun.

468

: 00:19:07

So, you know, you just,

you don't have much,

469

: 00:19:14

uh, personality up there.

470

: 00:19:16

Right.

471

: 00:19:17

But, I think it was

just immersion therapy.

472

: 00:19:19

Right.

473

: 00:19:19

I just took me about 10 years of.

474

: 00:19:22

can to

475

: 00:19:23

It's just doing everything wrong that

you could, that could possibly go wrong,

476

: 00:19:26

what eventually happened, you survive it.

477

: 00:19:29

And now you have that

478

: 00:19:30

skill.

479

: 00:19:31

Jason English (Host): Right

480

: 00:19:32

Kelly Willis: And then,

481

: 00:19:33

coping and then other stuff

happens where you start having fun.

482

: 00:19:37

There's so many little catchphrases

that happen on the road, but like one of

483

: 00:19:40

them is, well, another perfect

show, like you walk off the stage.

484

: 00:19:45

And you just, it just

doesn't matter that much.

485

: 00:19:48

you just have a good

486

: 00:19:49

time.

487

: 00:19:50

Jason English (Host): If you were,

488

: 00:19:51

20 years old today experiencing

the same challenges,

489

: 00:19:55

do you think the environment would be

490

: 00:19:57

different in the

491

: 00:19:59

access to help or resources

492

: 00:20:01

or,

493

: 00:20:01

You know, I guess the, the openness

around self awareness and self care,

494

: 00:20:05

Kelly Willis: I

495

: 00:20:06

Jason English (Host): would it be, would

496

: 00:20:06

it be, different?

497

: 00:20:07

Do you

498

: 00:20:07

think

499

: 00:20:07

Kelly Willis: think?

500

: 00:20:08

it would be

501

: 00:20:08

different.

502

: 00:20:09

I don't, nobody really

talked about this stuff

503

: 00:20:11

back then, and I think it's pretty common.

504

: 00:20:13

Jason English (Host): Do you think Yeah,

505

: 00:20:14

Kelly Willis: and I, I

506

: 00:20:14

mean,

507

: 00:20:15

definitely there's like drugs and stuff

people take for social phobia now, and

508

: 00:20:20

I was never, that was never an option.

509

: 00:20:22

Um,

510

: 00:20:23

but I do know

511

: 00:20:24

that it would have been,

512

: 00:20:26

more talked about.

513

: 00:20:27

Although, although there would be social

514

: 00:20:29

media and stuff that I

would have not been able to

515

: 00:20:32

Jason English (Host): oh my gosh, that

would be just, that'd be like a nightmare.

516

: 00:20:35

Right.

517

: 00:20:36

Yeah.

518

: 00:20:37

Yeah.

519

: 00:20:37

and you, you know, we

mentioned Taylor Swift too.

520

: 00:20:39

It's

521

: 00:20:39

like as successful as she

is, it's well documented.

522

: 00:20:43

She's

523

: 00:20:43

got so many insecurities and

524

: 00:20:45

she's aware of everything and

it completely affects her.

525

: 00:20:48

And you'd think, well,

it's, you know, like she's

526

: 00:20:51

at the point where like she

shouldn't care, but like it,

527

: 00:20:52

Kelly Willis: Right, but you grow up.

528

: 00:20:54

you

529

: 00:20:54

grow up, you're standing on a stage,

and people are looking at you, and

530

: 00:20:59

they're judging every little thing about

you, and you get used to that, and you

531

: 00:21:03

can kind of get a tough skin about it,

532

: 00:21:06

but it's hard to not

533

: 00:21:08

walk

534

: 00:21:09

around feeling concerned about whether

or not everything about you is perfect,

535

: 00:21:15

or you're presentable.

536

: 00:21:16

So that's gonna

537

: 00:21:17

mess with your head.

538

: 00:21:18

Although I think a lot about

539

: 00:21:20

Taylor Swift's life is

gonna mess with her head.

540

: 00:21:22

It's like Michael Jackson

541

: 00:21:24

Jason English (Host): a lot going on.

542

: 00:21:24

Kelly Willis: Elvis Presley.

543

: 00:21:25

Like,

544

: 00:21:25

I don't think that's good for you.

545

: 00:21:27

I don't

546

: 00:21:28

think it's good for you.

547

: 00:21:29

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

548

: 00:21:30

How important is curiosity to you.

549

: 00:21:33

Kelly Willis: Oh, really important.

550

: 00:21:35

I think you got to keep,

551

: 00:21:36

you got to be in learning mode.

552

: 00:21:39

You got to be open to seeing things.

553

: 00:21:43

You can't shut yourself down

and just go, okay, this is it.

554

: 00:21:46

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

555

: 00:21:46

Kelly Willis: This is what I'm

doing from now until the day I die.

556

: 00:21:49

Like, I don't

557

: 00:21:50

think there's a lot of joy in that.

558

: 00:21:52

Jason English (Host): Well goes back

to what you said about your summer of

559

: 00:21:53

yes.

560

: 00:21:54

Right.

561

: 00:21:55

I mean,

562

: 00:21:55

if curious, a non curious

563

: 00:21:58

person.

564

: 00:21:59

They wouldn't have a

565

: 00:21:59

summer of yes.

566

: 00:22:01

And you sort of illustrated

that point, right?

567

: 00:22:04

Kelly Willis: yeah.

568

: 00:22:04

I think

569

: 00:22:05

it's good for your

mental health and doesn't

570

: 00:22:08

mean you're gonna like be good at

571

: 00:22:10

everything

572

: 00:22:10

Jason English (Host): yeah.

573

: 00:22:12

Kelly Willis: like everything but

574

: 00:22:14

Jason English (Host): So at 55,

what are you curious about today?

575

: 00:22:17

Kelly Willis: Oh man, I'm just curious

that whenever anything comes my way,

576

: 00:22:21

I'm just trying to be more open to

577

: 00:22:23

it.

578

: 00:22:24

I mean, I, I did try to learn how to

play guitar better a few months ago.

579

: 00:22:30

(laughter)

580

: 00:22:30

It's like, cause all I do is strum.

581

: 00:22:33

I don't do any picking at all.

582

: 00:22:36

And I'm like, I've got

to learn how to do that.

583

: 00:22:39

This is my life.

584

: 00:22:40

This is my livelihood.

585

: 00:22:42

I need to know how to do that.

586

: 00:22:44

And I got in there and I tried.

587

: 00:22:46

I tried.

588

: 00:22:47

And I, I can play,

589

: 00:22:50

Wildwood Flower, but that's not gonna come

590

: 00:22:54

up.

591

: 00:22:55

Jason English (Host):

might as well be that.

592

: 00:22:56

Kelly Willis: I can't transfer that

into my own songs, but, you know,

593

: 00:22:59

I kind of got to see, I learned a

little bit there and I, I got my

594

: 00:23:03

friend Jackie room to take some guitar

595

: 00:23:04

lessons too.

596

: 00:23:05

Like we were talking about it and he's

like, yeah, I'm going to learn how to do.

597

: 00:23:08

And then eventually we were

598

: 00:23:09

like, screw that, you know, you

know, what's better being the singer.

599

: 00:23:16

Jason English (Host): about it.

600

: 00:23:17

Kelly Willis: Yeah.

601

: 00:23:17

Who wants to be the

602

: 00:23:18

guitar player?

603

: 00:23:19

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

604

: 00:23:20

Well, you know,

605

: 00:23:21

Kelly Willis: Come on.

606

: 00:23:21

It's our fantasy.

607

: 00:23:22

We,

608

: 00:23:24

we came up with

609

: 00:23:24

it.

610

: 00:23:25

Jason English (Host):

no, that's, that's great.

611

: 00:23:27

We talked about eras of

612

: 00:23:28

your career.

613

: 00:23:29

Are you, did you ever see

the Ken Burns documentary on

614

: 00:23:32

country music?

615

: 00:23:33

So

616

: 00:23:34

I've watched that like 10 times.

617

: 00:23:35

It's, I think it's like the most

amazing thing on television in

618

: 00:23:38

terms of documentaries, you know,

Cause it's, it's American history.

619

: 00:23:42

It's music history.

620

: 00:23:43

It's, it's a lot.

621

: 00:23:44

And what I love about it is the threads,

you know, the, the Carter family, Jimmy

622

: 00:23:50

Rodgers, Hank Williams, and the way

that the threads are all connected,

623

: 00:23:53

I guess, when you were thinking about

music in getting into industry and as you

624

: 00:23:59

developed your own career, what were the

threads of country music that inspired

625

: 00:24:05

you the most?

626

: 00:24:05

When I

627

: 00:24:06

Kelly Willis: I first started, I was, into

628

: 00:24:09

rockabilly.

629

: 00:24:10

There were people in

630

: 00:24:11

rockabilly like Wanda

631

: 00:24:13

Jason English (Host): big in

632

: 00:24:14

Austin.

633

: 00:24:14

Right.

634

: 00:24:15

Kelly Willis: but also

635

: 00:24:16

to Buddy Holly who kind of had

a foot in both worlds, right?

636

: 00:24:22

Like it's rockabilly, it's early

rock and roll, it's country.

637

: 00:24:26

It's a little of all that.

638

: 00:24:29

And then like Patsy Cline who

kind of, it was also in that

639

: 00:24:35

same plane, that same era.

640

: 00:24:37

To where I could go from

rockabilly to country.

641

: 00:24:42

And that's, felt like a,

there was more growth there.

642

: 00:24:46

Growth potential in that, in country

than there was in rockabilly.

643

: 00:24:50

So it was almost like I, I grew, I

evolved out of rockabilly into a country.

644

: 00:24:56

And then I was really, really

only interested in that kind of

645

: 00:25:00

Buck Owens era country music.

646

: 00:25:02

But living in Austin,

647

: 00:25:04

there

648

: 00:25:04

was all this Texas.

649

: 00:25:06

And I started to date this, Texan,

650

: 00:25:09

Bruce Robison, who his whole world was

70s country, which I had totally looked

651

: 00:25:15

down

652

: 00:25:15

Jason English (Host): don't know.

653

: 00:25:15

Oh, my gosh.

654

: 00:25:16

Kelly Willis: And um, so I got introduced

to all of that and Willie Nelson and, uh,

655

: 00:25:21

stuff.

656

: 00:25:21

Mm

657

: 00:25:22

Gary Stewart, Jerry Jeff

Walker, all that stuff.

658

: 00:25:26

So that was

659

: 00:25:27

a huge moment of growth as

well, like just being able to.

660

: 00:25:31

Jason English (Host): Right,

661

: 00:25:32

Kelly Willis: see the potential

and all this, this stuff that

662

: 00:25:36

I, you know, had come from

this other little world.

663

: 00:25:39

You know, rockabilly is a very critical.

664

: 00:25:42

We're very judgmental, which might be why

I was used to be so scared of interviews.

665

: 00:25:46

I thought I was being judged, but you had

to know all the facts and figures about

666

: 00:25:52

all the people and you had, you really

had to know what you're talking about.

667

: 00:25:55

And I don't ever really

know what I'm talking about.

668

: 00:25:57

So it was scary.

669

: 00:25:58

But, that was my growth.

670

: 00:25:59

And then much more kind of folky stuff

after that and learning how to, you

671

: 00:26:04

know, I heard this Lucinda Williams

record and, was it called Big Red Sun?

672

: 00:26:10

Was that the name of the record?

673

: 00:26:12

And I'd gotten an advanced copy

of it and this was the, like

674

: 00:26:17

90 something, and probably 90.

675

: 00:26:21

Um,

676

: 00:26:23

and it changed, I just, it

changed my mind about songwriting.

677

: 00:26:28

And I thought to myself, you know, you

678

: 00:26:30

can be,

679

: 00:26:31

you can do whatever you want.

680

: 00:26:33

You do not have to write like

681

: 00:26:35

these

682

: 00:26:36

little Nashville hit

683

: 00:26:38

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

684

: 00:26:38

The hooks.

685

: 00:26:38

Yeah.

686

: 00:26:39

Yeah.

687

: 00:26:40

Kelly Willis: you know, the world I was

in so young, I got in there, I was 20

688

: 00:26:43

and it was, they're always looking for

689

: 00:26:45

hits.

690

: 00:26:45

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

691

: 00:26:45

There's a formula.

692

: 00:26:46

Yep.

693

: 00:26:46

Kelly Willis: And so I

realized you can have

694

: 00:26:48

your own quirky little thing.

695

: 00:26:50

It doesn't have

696

: 00:26:51

to be anything except you.

697

: 00:26:53

And that freed me up to just start

698

: 00:26:57

playing around with songwriting a little

699

: 00:26:59

more.

700

: 00:26:59

Jason English (Host): That's awesome.

701

: 00:27:00

That's awesome.

702

: 00:27:01

So you mentioned the

wonder women of country.

703

: 00:27:04

If you look at 2024 and the next

few years, like that next era,

704

: 00:27:07

like what else do you see on the horizon?

705

: 00:27:11

Kelly Willis: Well, we have a EP.

706

: 00:27:13

That we recorded together.

707

: 00:27:15

We're going to put that out in March.

708

: 00:27:17

And then, keep playing

some of that together.

709

: 00:27:19

The sweet thing about that is we

can do that some of the time and

710

: 00:27:22

then we all go off to our own

worlds and do our own things.

711

: 00:27:24

So I I am also reissuing my What I Deserve

record, which came out in 98, I think.

712

: 00:27:32

It's 25 this year.

713

: 00:27:34

Unbelievably.

714

: 00:27:35

So we're going to have it on vinyl.

715

: 00:27:36

And maybe I'll put a little tour behind

716

: 00:27:38

that.

717

: 00:27:39

And then hopefully I

718

: 00:27:40

can make another solo

719

: 00:27:42

record.

720

: 00:27:43

I do have some new songs,

721

: 00:27:45

but I need to find a

creative partner to make that

722

: 00:27:47

happen.

723

: 00:27:48

Jason English (Host): Right.

724

: 00:27:49

Kelly Willis: So yeah, that's

kind of what's going on.

725

: 00:27:51

Jason English (Host): I know

streaming is a, is an issue or

726

: 00:27:53

a conversation for artists and things like

727

: 00:27:55

that, , it does give you a platform,

728

: 00:27:56

right.

729

: 00:27:57

For people like us

730

: 00:27:58

to just dial up anything.

731

: 00:28:00

Do you have a preference on the platform?

732

: 00:28:02

And if you use Spotify, could you

give the audience a indication

733

: 00:28:05

of what was in your 2023

734

: 00:28:07

wrapped top

735

: 00:28:09

five.

736

: 00:28:10

Kelly Willis: I do use Spotify

737

: 00:28:11

I was like my number one artist was me

738

: 00:28:15

Jason English (Host): That's awesome.

739

: 00:28:16

Kelly Willis: every time.

740

: 00:28:17

Every year I'm like, I can't share this.

741

: 00:28:20

Jason English (Host): That's

742

: 00:28:20

Kelly Willis: Damn it.

743

: 00:28:21

But it's because I always go, if I'm

going to play something I haven't played

744

: 00:28:25

in a while, I go there and I, that's

where I listened to it and practice it.

745

: 00:28:29

So I might listen to it 15 times

because I'm kind of practicing it

746

: 00:28:33

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

747

: 00:28:33

Kelly Willis: every year.

748

: 00:28:34

It's

749

: 00:28:34

like, Oh God, my favorite

song was one of my songs.

750

: 00:28:37

Like

751

: 00:28:37

it's, it's humiliating.

752

: 00:28:40

Jason English (Host): Oh my gosh,

753

: 00:28:40

Kelly Willis: Um,

754

: 00:28:41

Jason English (Host): thing.

755

: 00:28:42

Kelly Willis: I know.

756

: 00:28:43

My Spotify is always going to be.

757

: 00:28:46

I

758

: 00:28:46

think maybe that, Big

Star Song 13 was my most

759

: 00:28:49

listened to song last year.

760

: 00:28:50

Which, so it's, it's, not

like I'm, it's not like

761

: 00:28:53

it's, I'm on the pulse of what's going on.

762

: 00:28:56

I

763

: 00:28:56

Jason English (Host): that's you,

764

: 00:28:57

Kelly Willis: I just go

pull up something that I,

765

: 00:28:59

that I'm feeling.

766

: 00:29:01

Jason English (Host): One

767

: 00:29:02

last question.

768

: 00:29:02

When you signed with MCA, there

was, I don't know how all the

769

: 00:29:05

finances work, but You signed to a label,

770

: 00:29:07

hmm.

771

: 00:29:08

How much

772

: 00:29:08

things happened.

773

: 00:29:09

There was a process.

774

: 00:29:10

How much has that

process changed to today?

775

: 00:29:13

You know, and

776

: 00:29:14

for me,

777

: 00:29:15

getting somebody to listen to a song

for three and a half minutes doesn't

778

: 00:29:19

sound like a Herculean task, but when

you consider all the, the news outlets,

779

: 00:29:24

the content that's online, social media,

the millions of tracks you can play on,

780

: 00:29:30

on, you know, Spotify or Pandora to get

someone to listen to a song for three

781

: 00:29:34

minutes, that's actually a big deal.

782

: 00:29:36

Right.

783

: 00:29:37

Kelly Willis: for sure.

784

: 00:29:37

Jason English (Host): Um, but like

in terms of the business aspect

785

: 00:29:40

of things, I mean, how much of it

786

: 00:29:41

has

787

: 00:29:41

changed?

788

: 00:29:43

Kelly Willis: Well, God, so much

of it's changed and but also my,

789

: 00:29:46

place in the world has changed.

790

: 00:29:48

Back when I was really starting,

I was a young, untested

791

: 00:29:52

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

792

: 00:29:52

Kelly Willis: Act that there was a lot of

potential, the unknown potential, right?

793

: 00:29:57

So that's like very attractive to

794

: 00:29:59

harder

795

: 00:29:59

the,

796

: 00:30:00

business part of the world.

797

: 00:30:01

And you do stuff for a while and you,

you reach a plateau and then you're

798

: 00:30:05

like, okay, well that's where I'm at.

799

: 00:30:06

And this is where I'm going to have to

negotiate my career from here on out.

800

: 00:30:10

And then it's harder to

get those business people.

801

: 00:30:12

They want to get

802

: 00:30:12

somebody that see possibly

making them a ton of money.

803

: 00:30:17

You never

804

: 00:30:18

have

805

: 00:30:18

trouble getting any creative people

806

: 00:30:20

involved, but the business side

of it's a whole different world.

807

: 00:30:26

Jason English (Host): That have happened

25 years ago as it's happened now?

808

: 00:30:29

Just you guys like, Hey, we want to do it.

809

: 00:30:31

Or would that have been a whole different

810

: 00:30:32

process?

811

: 00:30:34

Kelly Willis: I think it could have

812

: 00:30:34

happened.

813

: 00:30:35

Yeah, because that's, that's just been

a natural, organic, creative thing

814

: 00:30:40

that we just fell into place together.

815

: 00:30:42

. I don't really know how the music business

works now because I don't know how they're

816

: 00:30:46

making money and I know it takes money.

817

: 00:30:51

So, but you know, there's so much

818

: 00:30:54

less mystery involved too.

819

: 00:30:58

Um, back then, they'd

have to come see me.

820

: 00:31:01

We didn't give them tapes because we

didn't want them to pick us apart.

821

: 00:31:06

They couldn't look up numbers

to see anything about me.

822

: 00:31:09

They just had to see

me live and get a feel

823

: 00:31:12

and see if they, what

824

: 00:31:13

they thought,

825

: 00:31:14

Jason English (Host): and believe.

826

: 00:31:15

Kelly Willis: yeah,

827

: 00:31:15

and believe.

828

: 00:31:15

And I don't know how they do that now

because now they have so much other stuff

829

: 00:31:19

that they can pick apart about you and

830

: 00:31:23

take the magic out of

831

: 00:31:24

it, you know?

832

: 00:31:26

And crunch it down into numbers,

833

: 00:31:28

every little part of it.

834

: 00:31:29

I'm doing it, all myself these days.

835

: 00:31:31

I don't know

836

: 00:31:31

how

837

: 00:31:31

they, how

838

: 00:31:32

the business people are doing

839

: 00:31:34

it.

840

: 00:31:34

Jason English (Host): right?

841

: 00:31:35

Kelly Willis: It is, for sure.

842

: 00:31:37

I love it.

843

: 00:31:38

and it's fun.

844

: 00:31:39

Jason English (Host): Yeah, I'm excited.

845

: 00:31:40

You know, I'm I'm I'm almost

50 but to hear you say that,

846

: 00:31:43

you know, Y where you're

847

: 00:31:44

at

848

: 00:31:45

Kelly Willis: Yeah.

849

: 00:31:46

Jason English (Host): career-wise,

age-wise, you're having the most fun

850

: 00:31:47

ever.

851

: 00:31:48

I mean that,

852

: 00:31:48

Kelly Willis: get inspired

853

: 00:31:49

Jason English (Host): I,

get inspired by that and I

854

: 00:31:51

know people will,

855

: 00:31:51

people will also like, you

know, thank you for sort of

856

: 00:31:54

affirming that,

857

: 00:31:55

Kelly Willis: I hope so, because I wasn't

858

: 00:31:56

expecting that.

859

: 00:31:57

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

860

: 00:31:58

Yeah.

861

: 00:31:58

That's great.

862

: 00:31:59

Yeah.

863

: 00:32:00

Yeah.

864

: 00:32:00

Well, thank you.

865

: 00:32:01

Kelly Willis: Thank you.

866

: 00:32:02

Jason English (Host): you.

867

: 00:32:02

Yeah.

868

: 00:32:03

I really

869

: 00:32:03

appreciate it.

870

: 00:32:04

you.

871

: 00:32:04

Kelly Willis: Me too.

872

: 00:32:05

Jason English (Host): Um, will you play a

873

: 00:32:06

song

874

: 00:32:06

Kelly Willis: yeah, I could play one.

875

: 00:32:07

Jason English (Host): Alright.

876

: 00:32:08

Cool.