Episode 6

full
Published on:

5th Feb 2024

A Chat with Kelly Willis

The Eras of Kelly Willis. Spoiler Alert, She's Enjoying this one the Most

In this episode of 'Curious Goldfish', host Jason English has a fun conversation with Kelly Willis, a successful figure in Country Music, who doesn't seem to be slowing down one bit.

Kelly revisits her journey of saying 'yes' more to life's opportunities and talks about her music life evolving from 'rockabilly' to 'country'. She shares her fight against social anxiety and discusses the importance of curiosity and fun in her craft. She gives us a glimpse into the formation of her new trio, the 'Wonder Women of Country' and shares plans for a new EP release. She also emphasizes how her perspective about herself and her career has positively changed, surprising even herself with the enjoyment that she finds in her music career at 55.

00:00 Introduction: The Power of Saying Yes

01:13 Welcome to Curious Goldfish: A Music Podcast

01:44 Interview with Kelly Willis: A Music Industry Veteran

02:21 Meeting Kelly Willis: The Queen of Austin, Texas

02:31 The Beauty of Austin and the 30A Festival

05:11 The Art of Songwriting and Co-Writing

09:25 The Power of Affirmation and the Impact of Taylor Swift

12:59 The Wonder Women of Country: A New Era

17:33 Overcoming Social Phobia: A Personal Journey

18:41 Overcoming Stage Fright and Building Confidence

19:50 The Evolution of Social Awareness and Self-Care

20:37 The Pressures of Being in the Spotlight

21:30 The Importance of Curiosity and Continuous Learning

24:05 Exploring Musical Inspirations and Influences

25:58 The Journey of Songwriting and Creative Freedom

27:04 Looking Ahead: Future Projects and Aspirations

29:02 The Changing Landscape of the Music Industry

31:40 Reflections on Career Progression and Personal Growth

32:05 A Live Performance to Wrap Up the Interview

Transcript
Kelly Willis:

These days I say yes a lot to things.

2

:

Maybe it was last summer.

3

:

I called it my summer of yes.

4

:

And I decided to just, because my natural

instinct was to say no to everything,

5

:

just like protect myself, isolate myself.

6

:

For many years, I think maybe because

of all the kids I had and just the, you

7

:

know, exhausting it was, I kind of like

to have time where I was just quiet.

8

:

And so I got into the habit of saying no.

9

:

And I, I decided to take a summer

where if I got invited to do something.

10

:

My instinct would be no and I would

have all the reasons to say no and

11

:

then but I would tell myself you

have to wait Until you come up with a

12

:

reason to say yes, and then you have

to say yes So I said yes to all these

13

:

things that came along and it was the

best thing that I could have done.

14

:

Jason English (Host): Welcome to

Curious Goldfish, a podcast community

15

:

where music and curiosity come together

through interesting conversations

16

:

with the music makers of our world.

17

:

I'm your host, Jason English.

18

:

You can find Curious Goldfish and all the

major podcasts and social media platforms.

19

:

And of course we have all of our

content on our website, curiousgoldfish.

20

:

com.

21

:

It was a real honor to be able to

talk with Kelly Willis, a 35 year

22

:

veteran of the music industry.

23

:

Her perspective is obviously unique,

but the most refreshing aspect

24

:

of my chat with her is seeing how

excited she is for what's to come.

25

:

It's almost like she's hit

the reset button at age 55.

26

:

And you can see the excitement in

her eyes and hear the anticipation

27

:

in her voice when she talks

about the rest of this year.

28

:

It all starts with a newly formed

female super trio, the Wonder Women of

29

:

Country, which she tells us all about.

30

:

She also performs a song called Looking

Forward to Looking Back, which is a

31

:

fitting summary of where she sits in

her life and career in early:

32

:

Here's Kelly Willis, the

Queen of Austin, Texas.

33

:

Let's dive in.

34

:

Kelly Willis.

35

:

So nice to meet you.

36

:

Kelly Willis: It's nice to meet you, too.

37

:

Jason English (Host): I mean, here we are.

38

:

We're at a beach house

overlooking the Gulf.

39

:

The sun is out.

40

:

Kelly Willis: stunning.

41

:

It's so beautiful.

42

:

Jason English (Host): I mean, I know

Austin is awesome for a lot of reasons,

43

:

but Austin doesn't have this, does it?

44

:

Kelly Willis: No and the Texas

Beach does not look like that.

45

:

Jason English (Host): It's

the middle of January.

46

:

It's a little chilly, but come on.

47

:

Kelly Willis: Yeah, it's okay.

48

:

I love a cold beach.

49

:

I think that's a whole, a whole

nother kind of vibe, vacation.

50

:

Love it

51

:

Jason English (Host): a scarf on.

52

:

It's, it, it, it all fits.

53

:

Kelly Willis: Yeah, I love it.

54

:

Jason English (Host): How often

have you been to the 30A festival?

55

:

Kelly Willis: is my first time.

56

:

Yeah.

57

:

Jason English (Host): did,

how did that come about?

58

:

Kelly Willis: I don't know.

59

:

I don't know why they asked me.

60

:

I'm glad they did.

61

:

I feel really honored to be

included as a songwriter.

62

:

I've always considered myself

more of a singer, but I do write

63

:

songs, and um, so yeah, I'm just,

I'm glad that that it happened.

64

:

I don't know how these things happen.

65

:

I just get a phone call and then

I get to play decision maker.

66

:

I get to be this powerful God.

67

:

Will I or won't I?

68

:

Yes, I will.

69

:

Usually I will.

70

:

Jason English (Host): Well, it's

probably like this podcast interview.

71

:

You're like, Oh, I guess

I'll show up and do

72

:

Kelly Willis: exactly.

73

:

I'm like, well, that could be fun.

74

:

These days I say yes a lot to things.

75

:

I am.

76

:

Um, maybe it was last summer.

77

:

I called it my summer of yes.

78

:

And I decided to just, because my natural

instinct was to say no to everything,

79

:

just like protect myself, isolate myself.

80

:

For many years, I think maybe because

of all the kids I had and just the, you

81

:

know, exhausting it was, I kind of like

to have time where I was just quiet.

82

:

And so I got into the habit of saying no.

83

:

And I, I decided to take a summer

where if I got invited to do something.

84

:

My instinct would be no and I would

have all the reasons to say no and

85

:

then but I would tell myself you

have to wait Until you come up with a

86

:

reason to say yes, and then you have

to say yes So I said yes to all these

87

:

things that came along and it was the

best thing that I could have done.

88

:

I just I made friends.

89

:

I did things I wrote

songs I had I was on gigs.

90

:

I made connections.

91

:

It was just wonderful and so I

don't say yes to everything now,

92

:

but I try to say yes to most things.

93

:

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's

one of the perks of being

94

:

in a career for a long time.

95

:

At some point you can make, you

can shape it the way you like.

96

:

Um, so yeah, I mean, I'm not going

to do everything, but, uh, you

97

:

know, I'm, I'm much more open.

98

:

Jason English (Host): What

was the most surprising?

99

:

Yes, that you, uh, that turned out

in a way that you didn't anticipate.

100

:

Kelly Willis: I went on a writer's retreat

101

:

Jason English (Host): Oh my gosh.

102

:

Kelly Willis: I would never do that

cause I have a lot of social anxiety, so

103

:

just the idea of being with people that

much, and co writing is a scary thing.

104

:

Co writing is so vulnerable and it,

to me, it feels like it could go off

105

:

the tracks and be awkward and weird,

just like a lot of potential disaster.

106

:

But I did that and it was with these

other women and I loved all of them

107

:

and we had a great time and we wrote

some good songs and, uh, I just.

108

:

Realize that I could do it.

109

:

I had just been afraid to do it,

110

:

Jason English (Host): That's incredible.

111

:

Take me through like, you know,

a snapshot of like an hour

112

:

or two in that environment.

113

:

Do you, do you come in with ideas?

114

:

Do you put it on a whiteboard and say, you

know, that kind of could work with this?

115

:

Does one person come in with something

half baked and you kind of help refine it?

116

:

How does

117

:

Kelly Willis: Yeah, I mean there

was just a group of us and we would

118

:

all just kind of look around and

go You want to write one together?

119

:

It was really not that organized.

120

:

It was just kind of who and Then

ultimately there'd be like two people who

121

:

were like, well, we're the only two left.

122

:

Let's go right together.

123

:

So it's very casual and for me I

came in with some ideas and The other

124

:

girls helped me finish those songs

I don't really have a strong skill

125

:

in helping other people finish their

126

:

Jason English (Host): Right.

127

:

Kelly Willis: Um,

128

:

Jason English (Host): different, right?

129

:

That's a different,

130

:

Kelly Willis: it's very

131

:

Jason English (Host): different skill.

132

:

Yeah.

133

:

Yeah.

134

:

Kelly Willis: Um, for me anyway, uh,

I don't think on my feet that fast.

135

:

I like to sit and mull and,

136

:

because

137

:

tinker with it and mess with it

and then completely scrap it.

138

:

Come back with something

a little different.

139

:

And so, usually I've done a lot

of that before I bring a song in

140

:

to get someone to help me with it.

141

:

out of

142

:

to help someone finish their

song is a it's just a different

143

:

skill set I mean, I've

144

:

Jason English (Host): song as well.

145

:

Kelly Willis: huh?

146

:

Jason English (Host): That's the

147

:

Kelly Willis: Oh god, definitely the

heartbreak I mean, that's the stuff you

148

:

remember.

149

:

Jason English (Host): the layup, yeah.

150

:

Kelly Willis: remember the

151

:

good things that have happened to me.

152

:

Are you kidding?

153

:

Jason English (Host): Don't say that.

154

:

Right.

155

:

It's just about,

156

:

Kelly Willis: They're just

they just fly by but the the

157

:

bad stuff sticks with you and

158

:

my Oh

159

:

Painful stuff the stuff you want to

160

:

a queen.

161

:

just emote But yeah, personal

experience and some little thing will

162

:

happen like I'm, I've written this

song called From a King to a Queen.

163

:

And it's just about, uh, I got

divorced two years ago and I had

164

:

to get rid of my, this giant bed.

165

:

Jason English (Host): That's amazing.

166

:

Kelly Willis: I know.

167

:

And I'm just thinking about it.

168

:

I was like,

169

:

so just little things like that

are the stuff that gets me.

170

:

Going.

171

:

Jason English (Host): really good, yeah.

172

:

Kelly Willis: Thanks.

173

:

Thanks.

174

:

It's not ready for prime

time yet, but it exists.

175

:

Jason English (Host): So one thing I

forgot to mention, we're here at this

176

:

music festival and I'm talking to,

you know, a few artists and you talked

177

:

about singing and then songwriting.

178

:

One of the artists I interviewed

yesterday, his name's Matt Killough.

179

:

I don't know if you know who he

is, but he's, , a newer artist.

180

:

He has one album.

181

:

He lives in Nashville now.

182

:

He's from Georgia.

183

:

And he was just, you know, we're

getting ready for the interview and he's

184

:

like, so who else are you talking to?

185

:

And I mentioned a couple of people

and I was like, Oh yeah, I'm

186

:

talking to Kelly Willis tomorrow.

187

:

And he's like, wait, what?

188

:

And he said, listen, for me, it's

Patty Loveless and it's Kelly Willis.

189

:

Kelly Willis: my god, that's

190

:

amazing.

191

:

Jason English (Host): So I wanted

to tell you that because I was

192

:

like, well, she'd love to hear

193

:

Kelly Willis: Yeah, that's so

194

:

sweet.

195

:

Jason English (Host): mean, Patty

Loveless just got into the hall of

196

:

fame,

197

:

Kelly Willis: Yes, I'm and I was on

MCA when Patty Loveless was there, so I

198

:

got to see it her up close in a person.

199

:

She's

200

:

amazing

201

:

Jason English (Host): You talk about

relationships and love languages,

202

:

you know, words of affirmation

are always like important.

203

:

so

204

:

Kelly Willis: cool, it's very nice,

205

:

Jason English (Host): think it's important

to tell people, uh, when you hear

206

:

good things.

207

:

And so, you know, I thought you'd get

208

:

Kelly Willis: I'll

completely forget that of

209

:

course

210

:

I'll be gone

211

:

Jason English (Host): can't forget that.

212

:

Kelly Willis: No,

213

:

Jason English (Host):

Don't, don't be a goldfish.

214

:

Like there's certain, there's

certain times when you should be

215

:

a goldfish where, you know, forget

216

:

mistakes and stuff, but

things you should hold on

217

:

Kelly Willis: maybe I should write it

down and have a little mirror affirmation.

218

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah, exactly.

219

:

exactly.

220

:

So you mentioned MCA, which

leads me to a thing about eras.

221

:

Are you Taylor Swift fan?

222

:

Kelly Willis: I'm in this funny little

spot that I've not like a crazy Taylor

223

:

Swift fan, but I'm, I don't have

anything against her, but I'm impressed.

224

:

Incredibly

225

:

impressed with her.

226

:

Jason English (Host): Well, I was going

to ask you, you know, you've had this

227

:

incredible career and your perspective

on what she's been able to do, at 32

228

:

and coming up through through country.

229

:

And now

230

:

Kelly Willis: I know

231

:

Jason English (Host): mean, what,

232

:

Kelly Willis: she blows me away.

233

:

I feel like she's kind

of like a different,

234

:

she's

235

:

nobody like that.

236

:

The people who are that talented,

that young and it's like she's like

237

:

superman from some other planet, right?

238

:

We can't compare ourselves to her.

239

:

She's unique and

240

:

Yeah, it blows my mind what she's

done to go from country to pop

241

:

and to be so powerful and yet,

vulnerable and all that stuff.

242

:

It's really impressive.

243

:

And to be that good, that

young is crazy to me.

244

:

Um, yeah,

245

:

Jason English (Host): but I was blown

away because she had 75, 000 people in the

246

:

palm of her hand and it was like ultimate

247

:

power.

248

:

And I'm like, good for her,

you know, like good for her.

249

:

So,

250

:

Kelly Willis: Yeah, she does it all.

251

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah, Anyway,

I bring that up because, she had the

252

:

eras tour and, you've had this career.

253

:

You, I think you've had

your own eras, right?

254

:

So you mentioned MCA, that's

probably maybe the first

255

:

era.

256

:

Is that fair?

257

:

Yeah,

258

:

And I'm not going to get these

in the right sequential order,

259

:

but there was MCA that you went,

uh, you do a little rockabilly.

260

:

Is that part of the same era or is that

261

:

its

262

:

own

263

:

Kelly Willis: say I was rockabilly first.

264

:

So it was a rockabilly

and a rockabilly band.

265

:

And then I moved to from the

266

:

D.

267

:

C.

268

:

area and I moved to Austin.

269

:

And, within two years from living

in Austin, I got my MCA deal.

270

:

So I was

271

:

20 when I got that

272

:

Jason English (Host): And

that was like in the late

273

:

eighties, right?

274

:

89 or 90.

275

:

Yeah,

276

:

Kelly Willis: and I think

my record came out in 90.

277

:

So, rockabilly first, and

then much more country.

278

:

Um, I'm a

279

:

second.

280

:

Jason English (Host): And then

yet you're a mother, right?

281

:

And

282

:

you're still a mother, but

like there was probably

283

:

raising,

284

:

raising your son.

285

:

And you know, that's

probably its own era, right?

286

:

Kelly Willis: I got my RICO record

deal and I made this, what I

287

:

deserve record before I had kids.

288

:

And I, I'd probably call that a

different era because that was much

289

:

more of an independent kind of country

290

:

folk

291

:

thing for me and where I

really started writing songs.

292

:

And then I got married

and had kids and then I,

293

:

I had four

294

:

kids in that time and

that was survival mode.

295

:

So that was

296

:

different.

297

:

Jason English (Host): All in.

298

:

Yeah.

299

:

Yeah.

300

:

Right.

301

:

Right.

302

:

Kelly Willis: because that

was so all consuming and

303

:

difficult.

304

:

That's when my husband and I started

performing together and more of a

305

:

duo, um, just, you know, to keep it all

306

:

in house kind of, you

know, it just kind of

307

:

worked better that way.

308

:

Jason English (Host): that

time you and Bruce that that's

309

:

probably its own era as well.

310

:

Right?

311

:

Yeah.

312

:

Yeah, What's the era today?

313

:

Kelly Willis: You know,

it's funny because, um,

314

:

so I'm 55 and I am having the most fun.

315

:

I am loving my career more now than

ever, and I never would have thought

316

:

that, and I've been out doing these shows.

317

:

I've been,

318

:

So my kids, I still have one at

home, but three of them are off in

319

:

college, starting their lives, and,

320

:

I've been able to spend more time getting

back into touring and being on the

321

:

road and, uh, just gigging a lot more.

322

:

So I've been doing that just my

solo stuff, but also with these

323

:

other two women, Brennan Lee and

Melissa Carper, this trio with them.

324

:

That is so fun.

325

:

, they're both so talented, but I

think because we're all three,

326

:

we have individual bands where

our own front people, right?

327

:

That everyone in the band is so

invested in what we're doing.

328

:

Um, no one's a gun for hire that's

wondering, if they're going to

329

:

get paid for doing this podcast.

330

:

You know what I mean?

331

:

Like they're, which they have every

right to that's their, that's their gig.

332

:

But the three of us are

333

:

just like, well, what should we do now?

334

:

And equally just

335

:

enjoying it and doing whatever

bending over backwards because

336

:

it's our thing.

337

:

Jason English (Host): Do

you play each other's songs?

338

:

do, you play your own

339

:

Kelly Willis: we get up and So Melissa

plays stand up bass and Brennan is

340

:

a badass guitar player.

341

:

She plays all the lead parts and mandolin.

342

:

and

343

:

then I just play all the strummy,

swishy stuff that blends it

344

:

together.

345

:

Um, and we play each other's songs and

346

:

sing harmonies on each song.

347

:

And

348

:

Jason English (Host):

There a name for the trio?

349

:

Kelly Willis: yes, we just named it.

350

:

We're, uh, Wonder

351

:

Women of Country.

352

:

I know!

353

:

Like two weeks ago.

354

:

Cause we did it, we just

355

:

recorded a little EP and we're we're

356

:

like, we have to have a

name, you guys, and Brennan,

357

:

Brennan goes, uh, how about Wonder Woman

358

:

of Country, and we're all like, yes.

359

:

Jason English (Host): see the

I can see the merch right now.

360

:

Kelly Willis: there's so

361

:

many merch

362

:

Jason English (Host):

there's so many options.

363

:

Well, that's cool.

364

:

So what you're having the most fun

365

:

now, I guess

366

:

which era

367

:

shape shape shaped you will shape

368

:

you the most like you that you're like

okay, well, I wouldn't be who I was today.

369

:

I'm sure they all contributed to it.

370

:

But

371

:

like what's what stands

372

:

out?

373

:

Mm

374

:

Kelly Willis: to it, but, um, I

think when I started performing

375

:

with Bruce, my ex husband, that, um,

376

:

all of a sudden the pressure

was divided in half.

377

:

So I was on stage, every aspect of

it was more fun because there was

378

:

somebody there who was going to catch

any moment where something might

379

:

Just go wrong or I,

you know, sometimes you

380

:

just

381

:

there

382

:

blank space out, just stuff happens.

383

:

And knowing that.

384

:

There was someone else there that

was equally and someone else was

385

:

going to talk or tell a story or

386

:

thing I sing.

387

:

You know, just,

388

:

I don't have to sing this next song.

389

:

I get to do the harmony part, which

is so fun to sing the harmony part.

390

:

It just divided the

workload and I was able to

391

:

learn from him

392

:

because he had a completely

different style of performing.

393

:

It was just a lot more fun.

394

:

I was always really nervous,

really worried about

395

:

being perfect when it was just

396

:

Jason English (Host):

Yeah, yeah, that's a lot of

397

:

Kelly Willis: singing perfectly, all

the things and performing with him,

398

:

I was able to see how to be more,

to have a better time up there and,

399

:

it was just a whole, it was very

400

:

great learning experience about

just stepping inside somebody else's

401

:

thing and seeing a

completely different side

402

:

Perspective.

403

:

Jason English (Host): That's neat.

404

:

Are

405

:

you able to apply that to the

Wonder Women of Country now as well?

406

:

It probably still applies, right?

407

:

Kelly Willis: Oh Yeah.

408

:

It changed everything.

409

:

Even my solo stuff, just even without

other people, I just have more fun.

410

:

Somewhere along the way, I learned that

it didn't really matter how you sang.

411

:

Like, you know, the people, my favorite

people that are singing, I never

412

:

think about that they're singing.

413

:

If you think of Mick Jagger,

414

:

you're not thinking about

if he's hitting the notes.

415

:

beautifully.

416

:

He's just singing.

417

:

He's just telling

418

:

you this story.

419

:

He's just

420

:

embodying that song.

421

:

And so I stopped

422

:

worrying about that.

423

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah, they're

not holding up numbers, you know,

424

:

when you listen to it, right?

425

:

Yeah.

426

:

Yeah.

427

:

Kelly Willis: So Yeah.

428

:

that changed for me.

429

:

Jason English (Host): No, that's great.

430

:

So you mentioned the

anxiety, obviously as a

431

:

music fan, you make assumptions about

artists and on stage and recording

432

:

records.

433

:

It's just wild

434

:

to, to learn and, you know,

understand that artists struggle with.

435

:

I don't know if it's, you know, stage

fright or social phobia or all these

436

:

things, but it's a real thing, I guess.

437

:

Tell me more about that and has

it changed through the years?

438

:

Is it,

439

:

you know, yeah, tell

440

:

Kelly Willis: Well, I used to have

pretty severe social phobia, as a young

441

:

person.

442

:

And, if you talk to me, I might cry.

443

:

Like it was very difficult for

444

:

me, not around people that I knew that

were my friends and trusted people.

445

:

I

446

:

was, whatever my personality is, was,

would be full on, but, in most settings,

447

:

,

it was intense and

448

:

Jason English (Host): Is it one on

one, was it one on one conversations?

449

:

Or was it just, is the

stage just a different

450

:

environment and you were

451

:

able to kind of like work through

452

:

it?

453

:

Or was it also

454

:

that?

455

:

Kelly Willis: well, it was a

lot of one on one, a lot of.

456

:

All the just different little

exchange moments in life.

457

:

Like if you're at the grocery

store and you're in line and you

458

:

know in a minute you're going

to have to talk to the checkout

459

:

person.

460

:

Terrifying.

461

:

So it's those kinds of little things.

462

:

On the stage you could

sort of, disassociate.

463

:

You could be in this little world, right?

464

:

You're presenting something.

465

:

You're pretending in a way.

466

:

The guys used to tease me because for

years, I, anything I said on stage

467

:

would end with a, and it was really fun.

468

:

So, you know, you just,

you don't have much,

469

:

uh, personality up there.

470

:

Right.

471

:

But, I think it was

just immersion therapy.

472

:

Right.

473

:

I just took me about 10 years of.

474

:

can to

475

:

It's just doing everything wrong that

you could, that could possibly go wrong,

476

:

what eventually happened, you survive it.

477

:

And now you have that

478

:

skill.

479

:

Jason English (Host): Right

480

:

Kelly Willis: And then,

481

:

coping and then other stuff

happens where you start having fun.

482

:

There's so many little catchphrases

that happen on the road, but like one of

483

:

them is, well, another perfect

show, like you walk off the stage.

484

:

And you just, it just

doesn't matter that much.

485

:

you just have a good

486

:

time.

487

:

Jason English (Host): If you were,

488

:

20 years old today experiencing

the same challenges,

489

:

do you think the environment would be

490

:

different in the

491

:

access to help or resources

492

:

or,

493

:

You know, I guess the, the openness

around self awareness and self care,

494

:

Kelly Willis: I

495

:

Jason English (Host): would it be, would

496

:

it be, different?

497

:

Do you

498

:

think

499

:

Kelly Willis: think?

500

:

it would be

501

:

different.

502

:

I don't, nobody really

talked about this stuff

503

:

back then, and I think it's pretty common.

504

:

Jason English (Host): Do you think Yeah,

505

:

Kelly Willis: and I, I

506

:

mean,

507

:

definitely there's like drugs and stuff

people take for social phobia now, and

508

:

I was never, that was never an option.

509

:

Um,

510

:

but I do know

511

:

that it would have been,

512

:

more talked about.

513

:

Although, although there would be social

514

:

media and stuff that I

would have not been able to

515

:

Jason English (Host): oh my gosh, that

would be just, that'd be like a nightmare.

516

:

Right.

517

:

Yeah.

518

:

Yeah.

519

:

and you, you know, we

mentioned Taylor Swift too.

520

:

It's

521

:

like as successful as she

is, it's well documented.

522

:

She's

523

:

got so many insecurities and

524

:

she's aware of everything and

it completely affects her.

525

:

And you'd think, well,

it's, you know, like she's

526

:

at the point where like she

shouldn't care, but like it,

527

:

Kelly Willis: Right, but you grow up.

528

:

you

529

:

grow up, you're standing on a stage,

and people are looking at you, and

530

:

they're judging every little thing about

you, and you get used to that, and you

531

:

can kind of get a tough skin about it,

532

:

but it's hard to not

533

:

walk

534

:

around feeling concerned about whether

or not everything about you is perfect,

535

:

or you're presentable.

536

:

So that's gonna

537

:

mess with your head.

538

:

Although I think a lot about

539

:

Taylor Swift's life is

gonna mess with her head.

540

:

It's like Michael Jackson

541

:

Jason English (Host): a lot going on.

542

:

Kelly Willis: Elvis Presley.

543

:

Like,

544

:

I don't think that's good for you.

545

:

I don't

546

:

think it's good for you.

547

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

548

:

How important is curiosity to you.

549

:

Kelly Willis: Oh, really important.

550

:

I think you got to keep,

551

:

you got to be in learning mode.

552

:

You got to be open to seeing things.

553

:

You can't shut yourself down

and just go, okay, this is it.

554

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

555

:

Kelly Willis: This is what I'm

doing from now until the day I die.

556

:

Like, I don't

557

:

think there's a lot of joy in that.

558

:

Jason English (Host): Well goes back

to what you said about your summer of

559

:

yes.

560

:

Right.

561

:

I mean,

562

:

if curious, a non curious

563

:

person.

564

:

They wouldn't have a

565

:

summer of yes.

566

:

And you sort of illustrated

that point, right?

567

:

Kelly Willis: yeah.

568

:

I think

569

:

it's good for your

mental health and doesn't

570

:

mean you're gonna like be good at

571

:

everything

572

:

Jason English (Host): yeah.

573

:

Kelly Willis: like everything but

574

:

Jason English (Host): So at 55,

what are you curious about today?

575

:

Kelly Willis: Oh man, I'm just curious

that whenever anything comes my way,

576

:

I'm just trying to be more open to

577

:

it.

578

:

I mean, I, I did try to learn how to

play guitar better a few months ago.

579

:

(laughter)

580

:

It's like, cause all I do is strum.

581

:

I don't do any picking at all.

582

:

And I'm like, I've got

to learn how to do that.

583

:

This is my life.

584

:

This is my livelihood.

585

:

I need to know how to do that.

586

:

And I got in there and I tried.

587

:

I tried.

588

:

And I, I can play,

589

:

Wildwood Flower, but that's not gonna come

590

:

up.

591

:

Jason English (Host):

might as well be that.

592

:

Kelly Willis: I can't transfer that

into my own songs, but, you know,

593

:

I kind of got to see, I learned a

little bit there and I, I got my

594

:

friend Jackie room to take some guitar

595

:

lessons too.

596

:

Like we were talking about it and he's

like, yeah, I'm going to learn how to do.

597

:

And then eventually we were

598

:

like, screw that, you know, you

know, what's better being the singer.

599

:

Jason English (Host): about it.

600

:

Kelly Willis: Yeah.

601

:

Who wants to be the

602

:

guitar player?

603

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

604

:

Well, you know,

605

:

Kelly Willis: Come on.

606

:

It's our fantasy.

607

:

We,

608

:

we came up with

609

:

it.

610

:

Jason English (Host):

no, that's, that's great.

611

:

We talked about eras of

612

:

your career.

613

:

Are you, did you ever see

the Ken Burns documentary on

614

:

country music?

615

:

So

616

:

I've watched that like 10 times.

617

:

It's, I think it's like the most

amazing thing on television in

618

:

terms of documentaries, you know,

Cause it's, it's American history.

619

:

It's music history.

620

:

It's, it's a lot.

621

:

And what I love about it is the threads,

you know, the, the Carter family, Jimmy

622

:

Rodgers, Hank Williams, and the way

that the threads are all connected,

623

:

I guess, when you were thinking about

music in getting into industry and as you

624

:

developed your own career, what were the

threads of country music that inspired

625

:

you the most?

626

:

When I

627

:

Kelly Willis: I first started, I was, into

628

:

rockabilly.

629

:

There were people in

630

:

rockabilly like Wanda

631

:

Jason English (Host): big in

632

:

Austin.

633

:

Right.

634

:

Kelly Willis: but also

635

:

to Buddy Holly who kind of had

a foot in both worlds, right?

636

:

Like it's rockabilly, it's early

rock and roll, it's country.

637

:

It's a little of all that.

638

:

And then like Patsy Cline who

kind of, it was also in that

639

:

same plane, that same era.

640

:

To where I could go from

rockabilly to country.

641

:

And that's, felt like a,

there was more growth there.

642

:

Growth potential in that, in country

than there was in rockabilly.

643

:

So it was almost like I, I grew, I

evolved out of rockabilly into a country.

644

:

And then I was really, really

only interested in that kind of

645

:

Buck Owens era country music.

646

:

But living in Austin,

647

:

there

648

:

was all this Texas.

649

:

And I started to date this, Texan,

650

:

Bruce Robison, who his whole world was

70s country, which I had totally looked

651

:

down

652

:

Jason English (Host): don't know.

653

:

Oh, my gosh.

654

:

Kelly Willis: And um, so I got introduced

to all of that and Willie Nelson and, uh,

655

:

stuff.

656

:

Mm

657

:

Gary Stewart, Jerry Jeff

Walker, all that stuff.

658

:

So that was

659

:

a huge moment of growth as

well, like just being able to.

660

:

Jason English (Host): Right,

661

:

Kelly Willis: see the potential

and all this, this stuff that

662

:

I, you know, had come from

this other little world.

663

:

You know, rockabilly is a very critical.

664

:

We're very judgmental, which might be why

I was used to be so scared of interviews.

665

:

I thought I was being judged, but you had

to know all the facts and figures about

666

:

all the people and you had, you really

had to know what you're talking about.

667

:

And I don't ever really

know what I'm talking about.

668

:

So it was scary.

669

:

But, that was my growth.

670

:

And then much more kind of folky stuff

after that and learning how to, you

671

:

know, I heard this Lucinda Williams

record and, was it called Big Red Sun?

672

:

Was that the name of the record?

673

:

And I'd gotten an advanced copy

of it and this was the, like

674

:

90 something, and probably 90.

675

:

Um,

676

:

and it changed, I just, it

changed my mind about songwriting.

677

:

And I thought to myself, you know, you

678

:

can be,

679

:

you can do whatever you want.

680

:

You do not have to write like

681

:

these

682

:

little Nashville hit

683

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

684

:

The hooks.

685

:

Yeah.

686

:

Yeah.

687

:

Kelly Willis: you know, the world I was

in so young, I got in there, I was 20

688

:

and it was, they're always looking for

689

:

hits.

690

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

691

:

There's a formula.

692

:

Yep.

693

:

Kelly Willis: And so I

realized you can have

694

:

your own quirky little thing.

695

:

It doesn't have

696

:

to be anything except you.

697

:

And that freed me up to just start

698

:

playing around with songwriting a little

699

:

more.

700

:

Jason English (Host): That's awesome.

701

:

That's awesome.

702

:

So you mentioned the

wonder women of country.

703

:

If you look at 2024 and the next

few years, like that next era,

704

:

like what else do you see on the horizon?

705

:

Kelly Willis: Well, we have a EP.

706

:

That we recorded together.

707

:

We're going to put that out in March.

708

:

And then, keep playing

some of that together.

709

:

The sweet thing about that is we

can do that some of the time and

710

:

then we all go off to our own

worlds and do our own things.

711

:

So I I am also reissuing my What I Deserve

record, which came out in 98, I think.

712

:

It's 25 this year.

713

:

Unbelievably.

714

:

So we're going to have it on vinyl.

715

:

And maybe I'll put a little tour behind

716

:

that.

717

:

And then hopefully I

718

:

can make another solo

719

:

record.

720

:

I do have some new songs,

721

:

but I need to find a

creative partner to make that

722

:

happen.

723

:

Jason English (Host): Right.

724

:

Kelly Willis: So yeah, that's

kind of what's going on.

725

:

Jason English (Host): I know

streaming is a, is an issue or

726

:

a conversation for artists and things like

727

:

that, , it does give you a platform,

728

:

right.

729

:

For people like us

730

:

to just dial up anything.

731

:

Do you have a preference on the platform?

732

:

And if you use Spotify, could you

give the audience a indication

733

:

of what was in your 2023

734

:

wrapped top

735

:

five.

736

:

Kelly Willis: I do use Spotify

737

:

I was like my number one artist was me

738

:

Jason English (Host): That's awesome.

739

:

Kelly Willis: every time.

740

:

Every year I'm like, I can't share this.

741

:

Jason English (Host): That's

742

:

Kelly Willis: Damn it.

743

:

But it's because I always go, if I'm

going to play something I haven't played

744

:

in a while, I go there and I, that's

where I listened to it and practice it.

745

:

So I might listen to it 15 times

because I'm kind of practicing it

746

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

747

:

Kelly Willis: every year.

748

:

It's

749

:

like, Oh God, my favorite

song was one of my songs.

750

:

Like

751

:

it's, it's humiliating.

752

:

Jason English (Host): Oh my gosh,

753

:

Kelly Willis: Um,

754

:

Jason English (Host): thing.

755

:

Kelly Willis: I know.

756

:

My Spotify is always going to be.

757

:

I

758

:

think maybe that, Big

Star Song 13 was my most

759

:

listened to song last year.

760

:

Which, so it's, it's, not

like I'm, it's not like

761

:

it's, I'm on the pulse of what's going on.

762

:

I

763

:

Jason English (Host): that's you,

764

:

Kelly Willis: I just go

pull up something that I,

765

:

that I'm feeling.

766

:

Jason English (Host): One

767

:

last question.

768

:

When you signed with MCA, there

was, I don't know how all the

769

:

finances work, but You signed to a label,

770

:

hmm.

771

:

How much

772

:

things happened.

773

:

There was a process.

774

:

How much has that

process changed to today?

775

:

You know, and

776

:

for me,

777

:

getting somebody to listen to a song

for three and a half minutes doesn't

778

:

sound like a Herculean task, but when

you consider all the, the news outlets,

779

:

the content that's online, social media,

the millions of tracks you can play on,

780

:

on, you know, Spotify or Pandora to get

someone to listen to a song for three

781

:

minutes, that's actually a big deal.

782

:

Right.

783

:

Kelly Willis: for sure.

784

:

Jason English (Host): Um, but like

in terms of the business aspect

785

:

of things, I mean, how much of it

786

:

has

787

:

changed?

788

:

Kelly Willis: Well, God, so much

of it's changed and but also my,

789

:

place in the world has changed.

790

:

Back when I was really starting,

I was a young, untested

791

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

792

:

Kelly Willis: Act that there was a lot of

potential, the unknown potential, right?

793

:

So that's like very attractive to

794

:

harder

795

:

the,

796

:

business part of the world.

797

:

And you do stuff for a while and you,

you reach a plateau and then you're

798

:

like, okay, well that's where I'm at.

799

:

And this is where I'm going to have to

negotiate my career from here on out.

800

:

And then it's harder to

get those business people.

801

:

They want to get

802

:

somebody that see possibly

making them a ton of money.

803

:

You never

804

:

have

805

:

trouble getting any creative people

806

:

involved, but the business side

of it's a whole different world.

807

:

Jason English (Host): That have happened

25 years ago as it's happened now?

808

:

Just you guys like, Hey, we want to do it.

809

:

Or would that have been a whole different

810

:

process?

811

:

Kelly Willis: I think it could have

812

:

happened.

813

:

Yeah, because that's, that's just been

a natural, organic, creative thing

814

:

that we just fell into place together.

815

:

. I don't really know how the music business

works now because I don't know how they're

816

:

making money and I know it takes money.

817

:

So, but you know, there's so much

818

:

less mystery involved too.

819

:

Um, back then, they'd

have to come see me.

820

:

We didn't give them tapes because we

didn't want them to pick us apart.

821

:

They couldn't look up numbers

to see anything about me.

822

:

They just had to see

me live and get a feel

823

:

and see if they, what

824

:

they thought,

825

:

Jason English (Host): and believe.

826

:

Kelly Willis: yeah,

827

:

and believe.

828

:

And I don't know how they do that now

because now they have so much other stuff

829

:

that they can pick apart about you and

830

:

take the magic out of

831

:

it, you know?

832

:

And crunch it down into numbers,

833

:

every little part of it.

834

:

I'm doing it, all myself these days.

835

:

I don't know

836

:

how

837

:

they, how

838

:

the business people are doing

839

:

it.

840

:

Jason English (Host): right?

841

:

Kelly Willis: It is, for sure.

842

:

I love it.

843

:

and it's fun.

844

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah, I'm excited.

845

:

You know, I'm I'm I'm almost

50 but to hear you say that,

846

:

you know, Y where you're

847

:

at

848

:

Kelly Willis: Yeah.

849

:

Jason English (Host): career-wise,

age-wise, you're having the most fun

850

:

ever.

851

:

I mean that,

852

:

Kelly Willis: get inspired

853

:

Jason English (Host): I,

get inspired by that and I

854

:

know people will,

855

:

people will also like, you

know, thank you for sort of

856

:

affirming that,

857

:

Kelly Willis: I hope so, because I wasn't

858

:

expecting that.

859

:

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

860

:

Yeah.

861

:

That's great.

862

:

Yeah.

863

:

Yeah.

864

:

Well, thank you.

865

:

Kelly Willis: Thank you.

866

:

Jason English (Host): you.

867

:

Yeah.

868

:

I really

869

:

appreciate it.

870

:

you.

871

:

Kelly Willis: Me too.

872

:

Jason English (Host): Um, will you play a

873

:

song

874

:

Kelly Willis: yeah, I could play one.

875

:

Jason English (Host): Alright.

876

:

Cool.

Support Our Curiosity

This is a Passion Project.
We don't have ambitions to make millions, but we do have ambitions to inspire millions. You can help by supporting the effort with a one-time donation. It helps pay for ongoing website hosting, podcast hosting and social media marketing fees.
Support
A
Anonymous $100
Frapp and Sally

Listen for free

Show artwork for Curious Goldfish

About the Podcast

Curious Goldfish
A Community Where Inquisitiveness and Music Come Together. Inspired by the Mindset of Ted Lasso.
Launching in 2024, the Curious Goldfish Brand is inspired by two episodes from the First Season of the Apple TV+ Series Ted Lasso.

The “Goldfish” reference is about the importance of not dwelling on mistakes in life. In an early episode, Ted Lasso, the series’ namesake asks one of his players – after they were badly beaten in a play during training – what the happiest animal on earth is. The answer: A Goldfish, because it has a 10-second memory. Lasso encourages the player to forget the mistake and to not let it hinder his mindset. In other words, to “Be a Goldfish.” The “Curious” reference is born from another Season 1 episode where Ted finds himself in a dart match at a local Pub with a ruthless Football Club Owner. Lasso references a quote from Walt Whitman to “Be Curious, Not Judgmental.”

So “Being a Goldfish” is a great start, but curiosity is an undervalued trait in today’s world. We don’t ask enough questions; we don’t inquire enough about each other and about life. So I want people to be “Curious Goldfish.”

The initial premise of the podcast will center around my curiosity about music. I can’t sing. I don’t play a musical instrument, but I am inspired by artists who are vulnerable enough to put their thoughts down and then share them with the entire world. I’m curious about the songwriting process; I’m curious about a musician’s journey; I’m curious about the business of music; I’m curious about who or what inspires a sad song, a love song - and everything in between.

Though the initial premise is music, we will likely spend time discussing and highlighting all-things Ted Lasso. In its three seasons, it inspired the host in so many ways (work, personal, relationships etc).

The musical focus of the Curious Goldfish Podcast will center around up-and-coming artists primarily in rock, roots, folk, Country and Americana genres. Not every aspiring musician will earn $100 million from Spotify streaming like Taylor Swift. Our goal is to shine a light on those artists who have as few as 100 monthly listeners to those with more than 100,000. Their stories deserve to be heard because your music can inspire, and it’s time you had a chance to share them.
Support This Show

About your host

Profile picture for Jason English

Jason English

Tech Exec by Day, Music Lover Day and Night. Former Journalist who is trying to be a middle-aged William Miller from the Movie Almost Famous. Also, Ted Lasso changed his life...so there's that.