A Chat with Grace Pettis
Music, Curiosity, and Empathy: A Conversation with Grace Pettis
Host Jason English welcomes Grace Pettis to the Curious Goldfish podcast to discuss her music and her journey. Grace shares her story about writing a song as an apology to her best friend, Landon, who came out as gay after high school. The song, named 'Landon', helped rekindle their friendship and has served as a catalyst for conversations about acceptance and understanding. Grace shares her views on representation in music, highlighting the need for more female voices and the exploration of female experiences. The podcast also discusses the TV show Ted Lasso, its depiction of dynamic female characters, and the underlying themes of decency and empathy in the series. Finally, Grace hints at her new record, influenced by personal loss, separation and life after divorce, dedicated especially to those who have been affected by loved ones' struggles with substance abuse.
00:07 Introduction and Songwriting as Therapy
00:54 Welcome to Curious Goldfish
01:31 The Connection with Grace Pettis
02:15 The Inspiration from Ted Lasso
02:40 The Impact of Decency and Empathy
03:22 The Powerful Scene from Ted Lasso
04:18 The Importance of Support and Understanding
05:56 The Church's Approach to Homosexuality
09:08 The Story Behind the Song 'Landon'
12:11 The Power of Apology and Reconnection
22:02 The Importance of Women's Voices in Music
26:32 The Upcoming Album and Final Thoughts
29:40 Grace Pettis' Performance
Transcript
So I, had been writing this song and, and
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:writing songs for me is like this.
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:Cheap therapy, right?
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:You know, it's like a way to like process
things that don't make a lot of sense and
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:try to make sense of them, and and handle
stuff that's complicated and nuanced in a
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:way that you can't in just a conversation
or a text or it's like you need to put
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:it into some kind of a medium where you
know I think that's what art does so well.
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:It's like you could read a dictionary
definition of An eagle or you could like
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:read a poem about one and which one would
give you a better experience, right?
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:Of a fuller experience
of what that thing is.
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:So for me writing a song helped me
process it and sort of understand
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:my own journey a little bit.
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:Jason English (Host): Welcome to
Curious Goldfish, a podcast community
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:where music and curiosity come together
through interesting conversations
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:with the music makers of our world.
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:I'm your host, Jason English.
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:You can find Curious Goldfish and all the
major podcasts and social media platforms.
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:And of course we have all of our
content on our website, curiousgoldfish.
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:com.
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:I don't have a lot in
common with Grace Pettis.
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:She's a beautiful young singer
songwriter who has bright red hair
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:with a strong, clear singing voice.
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:I'm old.
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:I have a face for podcasting and my male
pattern baldness is unfortunately a thing.
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:Also, I can't sing or play an instrument,
but we do share one connection.
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:We both were raised in the church and
the fairly conservative evangelical
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:community, very much prevalent in the
Midwest and in the American South.
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:I'm going to come back to that, but
for a minute or two, I'm going to try
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:and make a couple of things connect
here as I tee up the conversation
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:I had with grace back in January.
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:As you may know by now, this podcast is
inspired by the television series Ted
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:Lasso, but what does that mean exactly?
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:It can mean any number of things,
but mainly it's all about mindset.
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:It's about mindset around self
belief, teamwork, leadership,
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:empathy, and yes, curiosity.
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:,
but one of the more important aspects of the show that
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:resonated with me is decency.
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:How we as humans, whether at work or
in personal relationships, treat one
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:another and are there for one another.
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:No matter your background,
gender, or status in life.
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:One of the most impactful examples of
this, you know, this idea of decency came
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:pretty late in the third and final season.
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:So if you haven't watched the entire
series yet, here's your spoiler alert.
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:You might want to skip forward to my
conversation with Grace, but I hope this
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:scene gives everyone the right context
before we jump into that interview.
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:This scene is about Colin Hughes,
one of the tier two characters
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:and a player on AFC Richmond.
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:We learn in season three that he is
gay, and he's put in a position to
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:come out to his teammates following
a crazy sequence involving a rowdy
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:and rude fan yelling nasty things
to the players before halftime.
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:We don't actually hear how he does it.
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:Just the immediate reaction of his team.
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:First by Danny Rojas,
and then by Coach Lasso.
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:Here's that sequence.
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:So we cool, of course Yeah Of
course, it's cool Yeah, yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Yes amigo thousand percent.
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:You're gay big whoop, but
we don't care right guys
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:actually, yeah Colin we do care, you know
When I was growing up back in Kansas city,
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:I had a buddy, uh named stevie jewell
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:Jason English (Host): So Ted goes
into a story about how his friend
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:was a fan of an American football
team that Ted actually hated.
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:And for two years when that team
played in the Super Bowl, no one
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:watched the game with Stevie.
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:I guess he was just left alone.
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:And Ted continues.
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:Because I wasn't there.
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:Because I didn't care.
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:But I should have cared.
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:You know?
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:I should have supported him.
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:I should have been at his
house both them years.
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:Sharing that seven layer
dip with my friend.
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:But the point is, Colin,
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:we don't not care.
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:We care very much.
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:We care about who you are and what
you must have been going through.
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:Yeah.
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:Hey, from now on, you don't have
to go through it all by yourself.
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:Yeah.
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:All right.
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:Yeah.
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:You heard that.
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:You got us, mate.
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:We got you.
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:Jason English (Host): What a moment,
what a moment of leadership and empathy.
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:I've watched the series many, many
times and I don't really recall
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:Ted going into too much detail
about his religious beliefs, about
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:spirituality or anything like that.
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:But in that moment he was just being
decent and making the point that it's just
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:not good enough for us to just casually
accept a situation and look the other way.
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:But genuine interest and
empathy is required when people
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:we care about feel isolated.
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:So back to my earlier point about grace
Pettis and what I have in common with
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:her, our heritage in evangelicalism,
though, Ted Lasso isn't overtly
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:spiritual, you could make the case
that in that moment he was ultimately
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:Christlike being there for his teammate
in a very vulnerable situation, but
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:the modern day church doesn't have a
great history when it comes to being
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:As Christlike as a fictional soccer
coach on Apple TV plus for whatever
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:reason this issue of homosexuality has
spiraled too many people into chaos
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:of arguing about doctrine or scripture
meanings or who's getting into heaven
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:and hell so much so that many have
forgotten that we just need to be decent.
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:So there was a musician, Rich Mullins,
my favorite all time artist in the
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:contemporary Christian music genre
who called this out explicitly.
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:Rich, unfortunately died
in a car accident in:
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:I encourage you to look him up on YouTube.
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:He was a Christian who spoke
with clarity and conviction.
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:And here he is in the mid
:
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:talking about this very issue.
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:To an audience who undoubtedly was
uncomfortable hearing rich describe
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:his challenge of writing a song
about his best friend for fear
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:that his audience would reject it.
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:He was scared that they would think
it was too much about homosexuality
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:when all he wanted to do was share
about how much he loved his friend.
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:Apologies for the audio, but here is rich.
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:Home, and, when I get there, I, I
get real uncomfortable, cause it
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:doesn't really feel like home, either.
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:Just, I wrote a line for Beaker one time,
cause you know how hard it is for guys to
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:tell each other that they love each other?
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:We're just, we're so homophobic
that we can't even be honest.
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:And, uh, so I really wanted to tell
Beaker I love him, so I wrote, I
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:wrote this really stupid song for
him that I thought was kind of funny.
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:And, uh, I included a woman's name
because, because my audience is It's so
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:homophobic, that I, if I wrote a song for
a guy, they would stop buying my records
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:and let's face it, I gotta make a living.
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:Jason English (Host): That clip is
amazing for so many reasons from
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:the awkward laughter of an audience
that was basically undressed.
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:Without even knowing it to the fact
that one of Christian music's most
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:prolific songwriters had to change the
name of a song for fear of backlash.
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:I am 1000 percent sure that if
Rich was alive today, the song
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:would be called "What Beaker Said"
instead of "What Susan Said".
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:You should look that song up too.
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:that's the environment.
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:Grace and I were raised in,
it's not all regrettable.
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:We both hold things very dear from
the faith and from that community.
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:But in her song, Landon about a
childhood friend who eventually comes
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:out, grace calls herself out and
reminds us all that we can do better.
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:And we can be better.
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:We can be more decent.
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:And there are likely people out
there who deserve our apology.
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:If a soccer coach who doesn't claim
any allegiance to any specific faith
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:can treat people with dignity and
respect, maybe those of us who proudly
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:claim a God of love can as well.
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:The conversation with Grace Pettis
begs this question, and she closes
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:us out with a performance of Landon.
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:It's an amazing song.
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:Look her up on Spotify, look
the song up on YouTube and
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:listen to her performance today.
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:Grace Pettis.
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:Let's dive in.
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:Grace.
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:So nice to meet you.
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:Thanks for your time.
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:Grace Pettis: Of course.
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:Yeah!
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:Jason English (Host): We're here
watching the sunset in Florida.
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:Grace Pettis: This view does suck.
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:Jason English (Host): It does not suck.
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:I
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:I mean, Nashville is cool,
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:Grace Pettis: Ah, is it?
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:this.
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:Jason English (Host): but it's not this,
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:Grace Pettis: I don't
know, it's not the beach.
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:Jason English (Host): it's not the beach.
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:All right.
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:So you hear the 30A songwriters festival
have, is this Are you a veteran here?
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:Have you been here before
or is this your first
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:Grace Pettis: first time here
was last year and strictly in a
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:girlfriend capacity Robby Hecht.
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:So this is my first year as an artist.
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:I basically just emailed
Russell and was like
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:and was
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:Robbie's coming anyway.
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:I'm coming with him.
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:You might as well let me play.
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:Jason English (Host):
That's smart, I love that.
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:Be staying
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:Grace Pettis: I'm gonna be staying in
the room anyway, like this will be the
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:cheapest situation for you of all time.
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:Jason English (Host): How's it been
for you this year as a performer?
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:Grace Pettis: It's been fantastic.
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:It's just like a summer camp, family
reunion sort of vibe because these are
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:a ton of people that I know and have
been friends with for over a decade
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:that are just, you run into each
other once a year in whatever their
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:home state is, and you play a gig or
whatever tour you happen to align on.
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:And then, you know, you
don't see him for a year.
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:And so you anytime there's a conference or
a festival or something like this, where
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:we all get to be in one space together.
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:It's just such a party.
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:It's such a good time.
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:Jason English (Host):
you see any performances?
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:Grace Pettis: Oh, yeah.
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:Yeah, we've
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:Jason English (Host): yeah.
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:What stuck out to you?
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:I
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:Grace Pettis: Well, I got to see
Roseanne Cash, and John Leventhal.
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:And that was, that was the
highlight, I think, obviously.
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:I mean, it was from very far away.
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:So it was a very small Roseanne Cash on
a stage with a very big crowd of people.
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:But, uh, but that was a
highlight for me for sure.
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:Jason English (Host): So I saw them.
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:That was, it was like March
th,:
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:Mm-Hmm.
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:at the Boulder Theater.
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:And, I'm almost 50.
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:I was the youngest person
in the, in the audience.
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:But it was right at the start of Covid.
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:It was the last show I saw for,
you know, a year and a half.
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:But I remember thinking.
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:Okay, that's like this is it, you know,
and she was amazing and John Leventhal's
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:a legend, you know, I mean So that yeah,
that's awesome So I want to get to some of
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:your music and what you have planned for
this year When did working woman come out?
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:Grace Pettis: Uh, the
record came out in:
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:Okay.
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:Jason English (Host):
okay, so there's a song on
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:Grace Pettis: song on there.
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:Jason English (Host): There's a few songs
on there, but there's a song on there that
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:just Spoke to me for a number of reasons.
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:It's called Landon.
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:Can you give us the headlines about
the genesis of that and then I want to,
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:I'm going to read some lyrics because
I think it's the lyrics are worthy of
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:an out loud reading because I think the
audience needs to know the depth of, what
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:you're doing, but where'd that come from?
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:Grace Pettis: Okay, yeah, sure.
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:It's autobiographical.
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:It's a song I wrote for a dear
friend of mine who was my best
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:friend in high school, Landon Beatty.
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:And, , he came out.
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:He's gay.
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:He came out right after high school.
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:We went to school in a very
small town in, rural Alabama.
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:So, sort of a homogenous, very
conservative, very religious community.
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:Where It's kind of hard to find your tribe
if you're different in any way, at all.
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:So as a gay kid, that's, that's a
tough environment to come up in.
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:He waited until right after he left,
to kind of make the rounds of the phone
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:calls and come out to a few close people.
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:And from his like recollection of
those phone calls and how they went,
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:my response was one of the nicer ones.
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:Which tells you a lot, because my response
was basically like a canned You know,
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:evangelical script that was like, love
the sinner, hate the sin, and you can
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:be gay, but you're not allowed to like
date anyone, and you should pray to be
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:not gay anymore, and you know, that sort
of thing that I had been taught to say.
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:Um, well, there's these Bible verses,
so I guess you can't be gay, and
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:like, you know, like even as I was
responding in that way to this really
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:vulnerable, courageous moment for him,
I didn't respond with vulnerability,
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:and I didn't respond with courage.
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:Or with love, like I responded
with just this sort of pre packaged
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:answer that was not personal for me
in any way and I hadn't had to do
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:any work or any wrestling with it.
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:I had never prayed about it, you know,
and, uh, as it came out of my mouth,
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:even I think there was a piece of me
that just felt like Something's off,
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:you know, like your conscience just
sort of prickles you and just something
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:tugging at your sleeve a little bit
Like maybe you should take another look
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:at this And so I spent the next four
years in college just like I myself for
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:for context I'm like the straightest
straight girl of all time like never
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:even I mean, I know there's a spectrum
But I'm like very far in one end of it
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:Unfortunately because women are awesome.
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:But uh, but yeah, I just I spent a
lot of time in college, like I joined
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:the gay club, the queer club, you
know, GBL, TSA, it was at the time.
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:And I was like the only straight
Christian girl in it, and I didn't
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:know what I thought about it at
the time, I joined it to , get more
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:information, to like, put a face to
some things that I didn't have a face
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:on, you know, or hadn't before Landon.
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:I took a class on gay
and lesbian literature.
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:I also took a lot of classes in, in early
Christianity, and I minored in religious
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:studies, and so I read a lot of texts, and
I, um, did a lot of praying, and, I spent
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:a lot of time thinking and wrestling with
a lot of preconceptions, not just about
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:Jason English (Host): yeah, yeah.
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:Grace Pettis: also, you know, and
I came out of that with a stronger
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:faith than I'd had going in.
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:It sort of was less about belief in the
head and more about faith in the heart
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:and, and, you know, a deeper trust in
God and, and also like completely a 180.
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:On my theology in terms of, queer
people and how the church should treat
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:them or how they should be allowed
to live as moral people, you know?
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:So I just did a total 180 on
that and then I realized that
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:I owed my friend an apology.
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:So I, had been writing this song and,
and writing songs for me is like this.
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:Cheap therapy, right?
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:You know, it's like a way to like process
things that don't make a lot of sense and
282
:try to make sense of them, and and handle
stuff that's complicated and nuanced in a
283
:way that you can't in just a conversation
or a text or it's like you need to put
284
:it into some kind of a medium where you
know I think that's what art does so well.
285
:It's like you could read a dictionary
definition of An eagle or you could like
286
:read a poem about one and which one would
give you a better experience, right?
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:Of a fuller experience of
like what that thing is.
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:So for me writing a song helped me
process it and sort of understand
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:my own journey a little bit.
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:Then I sent that apology song
that I had written to Landon.
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:I had already apologized to him, but I
felt like I just, there was a closeness
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:that we had in high school that, you
know, everybody listening can relate.
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:Everybody had that friend in high
school that's like closer than
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:family and you've probably never
had a friend that close again.
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:And it was that closeness
that I really, missed.
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:And I wanted to connect with him
and feel just like that we deeply
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:understood each other again.
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:So the song was like a catalyst
for us, uh, reconnecting and
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:becoming close friends again.
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:And he really loved it.
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:He wanted me to play it out.
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:I said, you know, listen, if you don't
want me to ever play this, I won't.
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:It's his name, and his
name is in the chorus.
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:So I would never have played
it without his permission.
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:Or encouragement, but he really
wanted me to so I started playing
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:it, played it for a lot of years.
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:And then when I signed my first
record deal, it's the song that I'm
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:the most proud of, of all my songs.
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:Jason English (Host): Yeah.
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:Grace Pettis: because it's, you know,
there's like, which one is like,
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:technically the best craftsmanship
or whatever, and I don't know, you
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:know, someone else can probably tell
me, but this is the one that, I feel
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:like has done the most good in the
world, where I've felt the most useful.
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:So I'm re very proud of it, and it's
sparked a lot of conversations around
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:merch tables that I'm really proud of, um,
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:Jason English (Host): Well if
you grow up in the church they
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:talk a lot about being a vessel,
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:Grace Pettis: mhm, yeah.
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:Jason English (Host): like that.
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:Grace Pettis: There's that st.
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:Paul prayer like make me a make me an
instrument of your of your Grace is it
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:or make me an instrument of your love
love make me an instrument of your
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:love Yeah, this feels like that like
I when I'm up there playing this song.
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:I feel that I am doing that in my life
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:Jason English (Host): well, I'm gonna
read a couple lyrics real quick.
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:Uh, just just because I think the spoken
word is powerful as Is a sung word but
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:from the day we met I was never the
same You were the mascot at the football
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:game big brown eyes in a Wildcat suit
hugging your knees outside the classroom
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:Favorite child of a single mother.
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:I loved you more than a boyfriend
more than a brother And then it goes
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:on and it says The way you drove
yourself to church every Sunday, we
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:swore we'd make it out of this town
one day and I called you a sinner.
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:Ain't no sin bigger and there
ain't no damn thing wrong with you.
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:As far as I can tell.
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:No, there ain't no hell.
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:Much worse than the one I put you through.
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:That's awesome.
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:Right.
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:And cause I grew up in the buckle
of the Bible belt in Missouri and
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:there's a lot of things that I
still hold dear about community.
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:Hymns, uh, scripture, the fact that
we're, you know, we're not alone and
342
:that there's a creator and, God sent
his son, for our sins, all those things.
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:But I, yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:Um, there's so much
tribalism that goes down.
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:Yeah, exactly.
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:No, exactly.
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:It's like, you're supposed
to disregard that for this.
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:Grace Pettis: I haven't
and I don't intend to
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:Jason English (Host):
That's great to hear.
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:Right.
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:Um, but I think on this.
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:Topic in particular.
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:I think the church got it all wrong.
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:You know, they got it all wrong.
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:I
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:Grace Pettis: well we got a lot of stuff
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:Jason English (Host): yeah, they got it.
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:They got it wrong.
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:Cause it's like, um, at the day, these
people just want to love and be loved
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:Grace Pettis: Yeah
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:Jason English (Host): and just think about
all the broken souls and broken hearts and
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:the disregard and the, in the, ignoring
and the, less than that they felt.
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:Yeah.
367
:By Christians who are supposed
to be followers of Christ,
368
:Grace Pettis: by Christians specifically
and also by the culture at large.
369
:I mean, like the, you know, it was
classified as a mental disorder to be
370
:gay until like the 70s or something.
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:So, I mean,
372
:right.
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:yeah, but, but yes, you're right, like,
you know, for a religion that, you know,
374
:ostensibly the tenant, the main tenant
is like, love your neighbor, right?
375
:We are not very courageous about the way
that we love people who aren't like us.
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:Jason English (Host):
Congratulations to you.
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:Grace Pettis: Well, thank
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:Jason English (Host):
Congratulations to Landon.
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:Grace Pettis: Thanks.
380
:Yeah, he's doing great, by the way.
381
:He's in LA.
382
:He did the choreography and acted
and danced in the music video.
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:So
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:Jason English (Host): gosh.
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:Yeah.
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:Grace Pettis: like now
387
:Jason English (Host):
everybody should check
388
:Grace Pettis: a grown up.
389
:Yeah.
390
:Jason English (Host): No.
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:Yeah.
392
:No, it's great.
393
:We were talking about this earlier.
394
:It reminds me of the song
Tony by Patty Griffin.
395
:Grace Pettis: I love Patty
Griffin, but I'm a huge Patty
396
:Jason English (Host): Yeah.
397
:I mean, a lot of, you know, a
lot of similarities with you.
398
:Grace Pettis: I've gotten that a lot
and I didn't ever think about it.
399
:I definitely didn't think about
it when I was writing the song.
400
:But afterwards I've gotten that
comment from a lot of people, and
401
:people have sort of drawn a connection
and said like, Oh no, did he die?
402
:You know, did he kill himself?
403
:And I said, no, no, no, no.
404
:Um, but there's, there's a line about the
phone call that people always think is
405
:like a phone call, you know, saying that
someone's passed away, and it wasn't that.
406
:It was a phone call.
407
:It was the phone call from
Landon of him coming out is, is
408
:the call that I'm referring to.
409
:But like, yeah, I can see why
people might, like, think that.
410
:Um, but yeah, no, it has a happy ending.
411
:We're friends again.
412
:And, um, that's why I think
it's so important to like
413
:important to Apologize to people when
we screw up because life is so short
414
:and like he's such a cool person and
I'm, I'm so much better off having him
415
:in my life, you know, and I feel like
there's so many apologies that are owed
416
:to the queer community going back like
the past few decades that are, you know,
417
:long overdue, but, but even, I mean, I
mean, among people that are living today
418
:that maybe don't feel the way that they
did in the eighties, you know, but have
419
:never taken the time to Track those
people down and try to make amends.
420
:And I think it's so important because
it leaves such deep psychological
421
:hurt and damage to be rejected.
422
:When you have the courage to
be like, this is who I am.
423
:And you show this really
core part of yourself.
424
:Not the only part of yourself, but
something really central to who you are.
425
:And then it's met with
just like, rejection.
426
:That's so psychologically damaging.
427
:So I think it's really important for
us to do the work of Where have
428
:I wronged people and going back and
trying to make it right as much as
429
:you can, you know You can't make it
right, but but it's never too late to
430
:Jason English (Host): no matter if you're
20 years old, 30 years old, 70 years old.
431
:That's
432
:Grace Pettis: That's some of the coolest
things that have happened because of this
433
:song is I've had people that have been
like I've got a friend From high school.
434
:I'm gonna look them up on Facebook.
435
:I'm gonna send him an apology like I'm
gonna and it just to know That there's
436
:love going out in the world is just it
makes it gets me goosebumps just to think
437
:Jason English (Host): think about it.
438
:Yeah, I feel really good
439
:Grace Pettis: Yeah, I feel really,
privileged, I guess is the word, to, I
440
:just feel like, this, Landon and I have
talked about this too, we just feel like
441
:our story has helped make other people's
stories better, and it's a really good
442
:feeling to feel useful, and that feels
so redemptive, it feels so, cathartic,
443
:.
Jason English (Host): You're, I think, passionate about, hence
444
:the working woman title, right?
445
:Is women empowerment.
446
:Feminism, all those things.
447
:And I think, you know, the
genesis of this podcast is the
448
:inspiration behind the show, Ted
Lasso and the character and stuff.
449
:But one thing when I was preparing
for this conversation is when you
450
:think about that show, yes, it's Ted
Lasso, but actually the most dynamic
451
:characters on that show were Rebecca
452
:Grace Pettis: Mm hmm.
453
:Mm hmm.
454
:Mm hmm.
455
:Jason English (Host): I
thought, I thought they were
456
:Grace Pettis: they
457
:Jason English (Host):
extraordinary examples of,
458
:Grace Pettis: great female
459
:Jason English (Host): yeah, yeah, yeah.
460
:Grace Pettis: acting.
461
:Jason English (Host): Yeah.
462
:And you know, just the fact that like
Rebecca inherited the, or not inherited
463
:the club, but got it through a divorce
and she, she had her own agenda, but
464
:she was able to use how strong she
was as a person and as a leader, but
465
:could also tap into the feminism to
really, which isn't a bad thing, right?
466
:Like the, the delicate feminism, to
be a strong person doesn't have to
467
:be, you need to be an asshole all the
468
:Grace Pettis: that you can be soft
and empathetic and community minded
469
:and that that isn't a weakness.
470
:Jason English (Host): exactly.
471
:She was able to kind of use both
to better herself and sort of
472
:recognize, okay, she's sabotaging Ted.
473
:That's not great.
474
:But then she recognizes what the
impact she has and I don't know
475
:how that all sort of transformed.
476
:I thought it was a great example.
477
:Grace Pettis: Yeah, it's cool.
478
:It's, it's interesting that we've
decided that these characteristics
479
:of being assertive is like male
and being nurturing is female.
480
:And, and I just think it's, it's, it does
such a discredit to so many like nurturing
481
:men that I know, so many single dads, and
it does such a disservice to like so many
482
:strong, assertive, powerful women who,
483
:It's that thing, like, if you're
a girl, a little girl in school,
484
:and you raise your hand too much,
or you talk too much, which I did,
485
:Jason English (Host): you talk too much.
486
:Grace Pettis: um, you know, you get this
bossy label, or this know it all, so
487
:we get those messages so early, and if
you're a boy, and you, you know, care
488
:about animals, or, or smaller children,
or you cry easily, then you're, then
489
:there's something wrong with you,
490
:Jason English (Host): Right.
491
:Grace Pettis: it's, what a shame,
that we put ourselves into these
492
:boxes in that way and don't just
let ourselves be who we are.
493
:Jason English (Host): You've talked
a lot about the music industry being,
494
:obviously male dominated and stuff.
495
:And I think like on your website,
you talk about, here in the U S women
496
:make up something like 22 percent of
chart topping artists, 2 percent of
497
:the producers credited are on those
charts and just about 12 percent of the
498
:songwriters, less than 1 percent of chart.
499
:Topping songs are written without men
500
:Grace Pettis: men.
501
:Less
502
:Jason English (Host):
less than one percent.
503
:Grace Pettis: Yeah, yeah
504
:Jason English (Host): is crazy
505
:Grace Pettis: Like Tracy Chapman
in Fast Car that was just, cut
506
:and was this big country
507
:Jason English (Host):
Yeah, Luke Combs, yeah,
508
:Grace Pettis: right?
509
:Which is so cool Years after the
fact but she is I believe the first
510
:woman of color To have a hit country
song like as the writer, and I think
511
:as this as the singer too it's just
yeah I it is it's really interesting
512
:because we sort of just we just treat
it like we're just fish in water
513
:where you don't even see it, you know?
514
:And, for every other
industry, think about doctors.
515
:There didn't used to be women in,
lab coats either, but there are now.
516
:And nobody, would say, Oh, I don't
want this brain surgeon, because
517
:she's a woman, if she's, the best
brain surgeon, you know what I mean?
518
:So, it, the fact that we're less
than 2 percent of producers is just,
519
:Jason English (Host): is just,
520
:Grace Pettis: criminal.
521
:I know many, so many
amazing women producers.
522
:We're graduating at 50%.
523
:Jason English (Host): percent
524
:Grace Pettis: From the music schools.
525
:So when sound engineers, mixing,
mastering, like producers, all of those
526
:people behind the soundboard, we're
graduating at the same rate as men.
527
:Jason English (Host): it's a lot
528
:Grace Pettis: But we're not getting hired.
529
:We're not getting the jobs.
530
:And I think that that's
that's a big problem.
531
:Jason English (Host): The
little decisions each day.
532
:Yeah, it's the
533
:Grace Pettis: Yeah, it's the little
decisions you do, and it's also just
534
:like, I don't think about it as like,
oh, I'm team woman and not team man.
535
:No, I'm team human race.
536
:If you're talking about the human race,
and women make up more than 50 percent
537
:of our population in America, and we're
less than 1 percent of the songs are
538
:written by women, we are just not hearing
this huge part of our own humanity.
539
:And art is supposed to
reflect who we are as humans.
540
:If there's no songs about, I don't
know, having a miscarriage or aging
541
:as a woman or what it's like when your
kid leaves the nest if we don't have
542
:any songs about this, then the female
experience is just completely erased,
543
:is definitely erased for women of color.
544
:So I just think it's a, I think it's
a mission statement to get behind in
545
:general to just try to help listen to
the stories that, that aren't being
546
:told, that aren't allowed to be heard.
547
:I think that that's a really
important thing we can do as humans.
548
:Jason English (Host): Does the,
success of Taylor Swift give you hope
549
:Grace Pettis: Oh yeah, absolutely.
550
:And Beyonce, like huge.
551
:And, you know, the Barbie movie.
552
:There's a lot of pink, the pink dollar
they said this year was pretty strong.
553
:I think it's worth remembering
that since forever, fan bases
554
:have been a lot of teenage girls.
555
:You think about the Beatles,
who's in the crowd, right?
556
:So we actually are the,
we are more powerful.
557
:We don't necessarily need to be empowered.
558
:We just need to remember
that we have power.
559
:Jason English (Host): Well, to wrap
up, you talked about working woman.
560
:Are you working on a new album in 2024?
561
:What's your plan look like
562
:Grace Pettis: got a, a new record
that is in the can, produced by Mary
563
:Bragg, who produced my last record.
564
:We're really proud of it.
565
:It's a really different
record than Working Woman.
566
:Working Woman was this kind of
anthemic, girl power, you know?
567
:I wouldn't say girl power,
but it was a rock record.
568
:It was a rock band.
569
:Big, loud, anthemic record.
570
:Um, very sure of itself,
I guess I would say.
571
:And this one is, is coming on the heels of
a, long separation and divorce and, COVID
572
:and a lot of, personal catastrophic loss.
573
:The kind that, made one of my friends
say after it sort of all went down,
574
:like, no offense, but this is my worst
case scenario what just happened to you.
575
:So that kind of thing.
576
:It's coming on the heels of that.
577
:So I got real quiet for a while.
578
:And I wrote a lot of songs that I sent to
my therapist before I, decided to record,
579
:um, and in some ways it's definitely
a divorce record, but I think it's a
580
:record specifically for, um, I like to
say there's, there's the two meetings.
581
:So there's the first meeting is, it's
like the secret club and there's 12 steps
582
:and you work the program and those of
you listening who know what I'm talking
583
:about know what I'm talking about.
584
:And there's various substances that
can qualify you to be a member.
585
:Um, but the meeting is pretty much
the same no matter which one it is.
586
:And then there's the second meeting and
the second meeting is for all the people
587
:that love the people in the first meeting.
588
:And that one also has 12 steps, and
that one, there's also different ones
589
:for different types of problems, but
it's all kind of the same shit, right?
590
:And if you've attended either one of
those, this record is for you, but
591
:especially, it's for the people in
the second meeting, because I think
592
:there's a lot of, art out there
that reflects the hero's journey of
593
:recovery, which is really important.
594
:And I'm glad that it exists
and there should be more of it.
595
:But again, just talking about the stories
that are told and the stories that aren't.
596
:There's a lot of people on the
sidelines of that journey of recovery.
597
:And a lot of people are hurt and
damaged and thrown away along the way.
598
:And then there's kind
of not a way to fix it,
599
:tell their
600
:you know?
601
:And it's hard for those people to
tell their stories because it's
602
:so taboo and it's so stigmatized.
603
:To be the loved one of someone who
has, recovered or been in recovery.
604
:You have a lot of complex emotion.
605
:You have a lot of anger.
606
:There's a lot of sadness.
607
:There's a lot of, uh, and it needs to be
okay for us to tell our story as well.
608
:It needs to be okay for us to, because
the reason there is a meeting for
609
:us is so that we can look around
the table and say, Okay, I'm not
610
:alone, and I'm not crazy, you know?
611
:Jason English (Host): to it.
612
:Thank you for the conversation.
613
:Can you, can you play
a couple of songs for
614
:Grace Pettis: Sure thing.
615
:Jason English (Host): right.
616
:Thanks,
617
:Grace Pettis: Thanks so much.
