A Chat with TOW'rs: Duo Celebrating 10 Years of Music and Transformation with "Versions"

Exploring Evolution with TOW'rs: Celebrating 10 Years of Music and Transformation

In this episode of Curious Goldfish, host Jason English interviews Kyle and Gretta Miller of the Arizona-based duo TOW'rs. The conversation delves into the couple's reflections on their 10-year journey in music, encapsulated in their upcoming album 'Versions'. They discuss the evolution of their sound, their spiritual and personal growth, and the significant moments and perspectives that have shaped their relationship and artistry. Kyle and Gretta share candid insights into songwriting, intentional living, and navigating both challenges and joys in their musical and personal lives.

00:00 Introduction to Curious Goldfish Podcast

02:51 Discovering TOW'rs: The Journey Begins

04:38 Kyle and Gretta Miller's Pros and Cons

10:04 The Evolution of TOW'rs Music

18:38 Faith and Personal Growth

29:28 Embracing Uncertainty in Faith

33:20 Inclusivity in Modern Christianity

34:31 Reflections on Spiritual Upbringing

37:15 The Evolution of Songwriting

43:02 Balancing Literal and Poetic Songwriting

46:33 The Influence of Parenthood on Music

54:42 Upcoming Album and Future Plans

56:18 Curiosity and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Kyle Miller: 00:00:09

I think that we all contain many different versions of ourselves and

: 00:00:13

part of the work of any human is to accept

all of those versions and celebrate and

: 00:00:19

laugh at it and take forward the things

that were worth taking forward and not,

: 00:00:25

and this maybe gets into the goldfish

You know, of Ted Lasso and bring, bring

: 00:00:31

forward the things worth bringing forward

and forgetting the things that, um,

: 00:00:36

are just unnecessary, heavy baggage.

: 00:00:38

So we actually, I interfaced a lot in

this record with a few of songs that, um,

: 00:00:44

I was feeling that way towards because

I wanted to, I wanted to like hold.

: 00:00:51

my younger self and be like, I love you.

: 00:01:13

Jason English (Host): Welcome to

curious goldfish, a podcast community

: 00:01:16

where music and curiosity come together

through interesting conversations

: 00:01:19

with the music makers of our world.

: 00:01:21

I'm your host, Jason English.

: 00:01:23

You can find curious goldfish and all the

major podcast and social media platforms.

: 00:01:28

And of course we have all of our content

on our website, curious goldfish.

: 00:01:32

com.

: 00:02:51

MacBook Pro Microphone: That guitar

riff, from a song called "girl in Calico.

: 00:02:55

Has stuck in my head ever since

the first time I heard it.

: 00:02:58

Soon after joining Spotify and

having the streaming service to

: 00:03:01

you by random radio playlist,

based on music I had already liked.

: 00:03:06

It's a song by Arizona based duo TOW'rs,

comprised of Kyle and Gretta Miller.

: 00:03:11

Who are married and have

two children together.

: 00:03:14

I reached out to them in the summer

of: 2024

: 00:03:18

bit about their background, very

similar to mine from the standpoint

: 00:03:21

of having spent a good chunk of

formative years in a Christian college

: 00:03:25

organization called young life.

: 00:03:27

MacBook Pro Microphone-1: I was

intrigued to hear their perspective.

: 00:03:30

On that and how it shaped

their music in marriage.

: 00:03:33

Both when they first met, and today.

: 00:03:36

They've changed and evolved

for sure, as most should.

: 00:03:39

And now 10 years since the first

album, that evolution is embodied

: 00:03:43

in a new album called "versions.

: 00:03:45

A reimagination of 10 songs

from the first five albums.

: 00:03:50

MacBook Pro Microphone-2: There

sound remained soft and sweet.

: 00:03:52

In these new versions, similar to

what Kyle was just referencing.

: 00:03:56

Represent different versions of the

musicians just as there are different

: 00:03:59

versions of ourselves as humans.

: 00:04:02

I encourage you to listen intently to

their comments, not only about faith.

: 00:04:06

But about each other

and their relationship.

: 00:04:09

They are an inspiration for all of us.

: 00:04:10

That true love is out there.

: 00:04:13

MacBook Pro Microphone-3:

And we can continue to become

: 00:04:14

better versions of ourselves.

: 00:04:16

each and every day..

: 00:04:18

MacBook Pro Microphone-2: And yes,

there's a new version of "girl in Calico.

: 00:04:21

On this new album.

: 00:04:22

So be sure to check that out.

: 00:04:24

Also, stick around to the end.

: 00:04:26

As they perform my new

favorite version song.

: 00:04:29

Called tightrope Walker.

: 00:04:32

From Flagstaff, Arizona, here are

Kyle and Gretta Miller of TOW'rs.

: 00:04:37

Let's dive in.

: 00:04:38

Jason English (Host):

Gretta and Kyle Miller.

: 00:04:39

It's such an honor.

: 00:04:40

Thanks for your time.

: 00:04:42

Kyle Miller: for having us on.

: 00:04:43

Gretta Miller: Yeah.

: 00:04:44

Excited to be here.

: 00:04:45

Jason English (Host): I saw you out

in, uh, you're on Flagstaff, right?

: 00:04:47

Is that your, is that your house?

: 00:04:49

Kyle Miller: We are in flag right now.

: 00:04:50

Yeah, this we're right now we're

in our studio that we built.

: 00:04:53

And, um, 2016,

: 00:04:57

Jason English (Host): Okay.

: 00:04:58

Kyle Miller: It's a detached

building in our backyard.

: 00:05:00

Jason English (Host): Okay.

: 00:05:01

Well, that's cool.

: 00:05:02

Well, again, it's a pleasure.

: 00:05:03

Uh, I know you have a lot going

on with family and with, Albums

: 00:05:07

and probably shows and stuff.

: 00:05:09

So thanks for taking the time.

: 00:05:10

I guess I want to talk about the project

that's in the works, but I just have

: 00:05:14

a couple of like random questions to

kind of get us going if you don't mind.

: 00:05:17

So, um, so Gretta, I'll start with you.

: 00:05:21

What's the one thing you appreciate

most about Kyle as like a life partner?

: 00:05:26

Kyle Miller: Oh man, you're

on the spot right now.

: 00:05:30

That's a

: 00:05:30

Gretta Miller: good one.

: 00:05:31

What's the one thing I

appreciate about Kyle?

: 00:05:33

Kyle Miller: His dishes.

: 00:05:34

Gretta Miller: He does all the dishes.

: 00:05:37

Jason English (Host): Okay,

: 00:05:38

Gretta Miller: Um, no,

that is not my one thing.

: 00:05:40

That is very kind and gracious though.

: 00:05:43

I do other things, but

he's amazing at that.

: 00:05:45

Um, I would say Hmm, he's,

I just have to pick one?

: 00:05:55

I want to list, like, three.

: 00:05:56

Um, if I just have to pick one,

I would say He makes me laugh.

: 00:06:03

We laugh together, and I think laughter

is medicine, especially in a relationship.

: 00:06:09

I think we have to laugh and play

together, um, so that's the big one.

: 00:06:15

But he also is quick to say sorry, and

he's kind, and he's curious, and open

: 00:06:22

minded, and I love all those things too.

: 00:06:25

Jason English (Host): well, that's cool.

: 00:06:26

All right.

: 00:06:26

Those are good things.

: 00:06:27

Good job, Kyle.

: 00:06:28

Way to bring it.

: 00:06:29

That's good.

: 00:06:30

And I just think same thing for you.

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What do you, what do you

appreciate most about Gretta?

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Kyle Miller: I think it's, you

know, because people are always

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changing, I think probably what I most

appreciate is always changing too.

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I think right now the thing I

appreciate most about Gretta in this

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season of life is um, a listening ear.

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I don't, it sounds like maybe you've been

in a partnership or have been married

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for a long time but for us it's just

I think the value of having someone to

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bounce ideas or thoughts off of without,

um, Without them wanting to fix it,

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or without them wanting to fix you or

the situation, is, is something that

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Gretta is really good at, and I, I've

been needing, I've been in need of those

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conversations lately, so, I've been

really appreciating that about her, but

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she has a multitude of qualities that

would also fall under that category.

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Jason English (Host): All right.

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Well, that's awesome.

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And I appreciate you sharing.

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That's great.

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Um, I'm not going to ask the opposite,

but I will, I will add something that

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I've wanted to ask you all is, You know,

uh, do you ever get sick of each other

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just given all the, you know, all the

things that you guys got going on, I,

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you know, and it, I guess it's okay if

you say no, but I, I would kind of call

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bullshit on that, but you know, like,

what do you, like, what do you, uh, Yeah.

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Gretta Miller: like, are

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Kyle Miller: you sick of me?

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Gretta Miller: Um, I mean, I

definitely need alone time sometimes.

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Um, I don't think it's because

I hate Kyle or don't want Kyle

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around, but I do think that solitude

is so important for my spirit.

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And, um, so yeah, I, I guess, I

mean, we do a lot of life together.

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Yeah.

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We have this.

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We have this band together when

we're on tour, we're crammed in a van

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together and You know, doing these

big, you know, sometimes stressful

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things for a month, solid together.

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Um, but in general, I, I mean,

I really like having him around.

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I feel like we've kind of figured

out a way to make it work.

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And I feel like we just

have to communicate a lot.

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Like, Hey, what do you need?

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Like I gotta, I need to just like go on

a walk or I need to, you know, go, go

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read or go be with a friend or something.

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But, um, so I definitely need alone time,

definitely need time away sometimes.

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But we do a lot of life together

and I'm really grateful that we

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get to do a lot of life together.

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Jason English (Host): Oh, that's awesome.

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No, that's good.

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Yeah.

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I mean, again, not to rehash it, but

that, that, that is a lot that y'all do.

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: 00:09:11

I mean, not just the band and the, and

the kids and the family, but I think

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y'all are like entrepreneurs, right?

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Like you, it's like your own business.

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: 00:09:19

So that just, all those things kind

of can contribute to a lot of stress.

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: 00:09:23

And, uh, so kudos to you guys for figuring

it out and, and doing life together.

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: 00:09:28

It's, it's, it's really cool to see.

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: 00:09:29

Um, so thank

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Kyle Miller: I don't know

if we've figured it out, but

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we're, we're trying really hard.

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We're having fun.

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Yeah, I don't feel like I get tired of

Gretta, but yeah, I think the, it is,

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yeah, it's a funny thing to think about.

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I don't, I genuinely don't think

I've ever been sick of her.

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I think it's mostly being just like in

a space where I understand I need to be

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alone, but I'm pretty introverted because

I, my day job right now, right when we're

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not, you know, touring as I work in the

studio and do mixing and engineering.

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So I'm naturally by myself a lot in that.

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So that's,

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Jason English (Host): Well, I know your,

your story is pretty well documented

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about, you know, northern Arizona and

the music with, uh, you know, some of

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the young life stuff and everything.

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: 00:10:13

So I'm not going to go into that because

I think that's pretty well documented.

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But I am curious about sort of, I

think you guys played music together,

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weren't dating, but like there was a

crush kind of back and forth, I guess.

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: 00:10:24

Was it love at first sight?

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And then what was the first move that

Kyle made or Gretta did you make the move?

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Like, I, I haven't found that answer out.

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: 00:10:32

can you take us back to that moment?

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Kyle Miller: it's debated in our

relationship with who made the first move.

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so we were friends for two

years before we started dating.

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: 00:10:43

Um, but yeah, love at first

sight is maybe like, not to be

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unromantic, but I don't know if, I

don't know if it was that, was it?

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Did you love me?

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I'm sorry.

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Gretta Miller: I feel like there was

always a certain, like, energy and

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attraction, um, but yeah, it wasn't like

certainty or love by any means, but I

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mean, I remember I had maybe seen him

around when we went to college together.

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I had seen him around at a couple social

events and then I ended up going to a

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friend's house and they were kind of

hanging out and doing a bunch of just

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goofy stuff and the first time I ever like

heard him play a song on the guitar, he

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was just like belting Since You've Been

Gone by Kelly Clarkson, which is like not

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in his normal repertoire by any means.

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But, um, but I just loved like, yeah.

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The goofiness and the joy behind that.

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Um, and I'm trying to think,

I mean, the first move,

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Kyle Miller: I think, I think

genuinely the first move was probably

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made by Gretta, but I made myself

available for the first move.

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Jason English (Host): All right, there you

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Kyle Miller: So, I mean,

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Gretta Miller: the first real move,

if we want to get into details here,

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like we were hanging out with like

a few friends and watching a movie.

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Um, and I think I had like a pillow on

my lap and we were sitting next to each

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other on a couch and I had a pillow

on my lap and we were all just like

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a group of friends watching a movie.

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And at some point Kyle like laid his

head on the pillow that was on my lap.

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So, I don't know if that's the first

move, okay, so he's on the pillow,

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but then I, at a certain point,

started playing with his hair.

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Jason English (Host): Perfect.

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Gretta Miller: So, I feel like

my move was a little bolder,

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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Yeah, definitely.

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All right.

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Well, thanks for sharing.

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Gretta Miller: that night, later that

night, he texted me and was like,

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we should go on a walk and talk.

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And so, then we started talking

about what this is a little bit

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more, and it was really sweet.

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Jason English (Host): I love that.

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Yeah.

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Um, all right.

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So, uh, you all are six albums

in and it's been 10 years since,

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since y'all started making music.

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Is that right?

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Um, I think, I think you guys are about

to announce or have announced sort

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of a 10 year Anniversary project, I

guess, you know, what is that about?

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Uh, what's the timing of that and

kind of what does that entail exactly?

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Kyle Miller: yeah, so that's gonna

we're actually gonna announce this

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next week that we're gonna release

that on august 23rd um The idea of

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the project so we have six albums.

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This project didn't include Um any songs

from our christmas album, but what we

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decided to do is kind of our more um

normal times of the year albums Uh, we

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decided to take two songs from each of

those And redo them kind of so yeah, the

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the angle That we took was doing almost

a collaboration with our older selves

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and covering basically the old songs and

playing them in the way that we sing now.

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Um, we changed up a couple of lyrics.

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We changed the keys cause I, I

can't sing quite as high as I did

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on the first couple of records.

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So, um, yeah, it was just sort

of this collaboration between

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our old selves and who we are now

and who we've journeyed to be.

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Um, And it was a really fun process

at first, semi, um, what's the word?

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I don't want to use the word painful

because that's not the right word.

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Uncomfortable, maybe.

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Some of the songs we don't play anymore.

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So it was interesting to interface with

them again in a way that's like really

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intimate because when you're recording

a song and working on a song you really

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need to give a big part of your heart to

it in order, in order for me to feel like

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it's genuine and something worth sharing.

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So it was great, lots of good

conversations were had in the midst

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of all that about who we've become

and Um, wrestling with who we were

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then and celebrating that and all,

all of the kind of like mixed bag

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of emotions that came with that.

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But that in a nutshell

is what the project is.

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Two songs from each of our five main

albums, excluding our Christmas album.

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And we basically re covered

them, so, or covered them.

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Jason English (Host): All right.

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Well, that's exciting.

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Gretta Miller: Yeah, they feel

unique and they feel way different

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than the originals, but still

the heart of it and the melody of

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it rings true to what they were.

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But it was really fun to dive back

in and, you know, there's two of the

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songs that normally Kyle would lead

and now I'm leading and one song

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that I would normally lead that now

is more of a call and response duet.

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Um, and really, yeah, some songs

It's where it's changed less in

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some songs where we rewrote the

whole, you know, half of the chorus.

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And so it's exciting.

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I'm really excited to

share it with everyone.

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Jason English (Host): so Kyle, you've

talked in other interviews about

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the challenges you had with singing

the early music, I think, you know,

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through like, I think that there's

a couple of interviews where you're

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like, oh my gosh, I can't do it.

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You know, I just can't, you know?

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Um, so I guess.

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Tell me, like, was that easy to overcome

some of those, uh, some of those, I

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don't know if there are emotional gaps

or challenges with that, or have you, had

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you kind of moved beyond some of that?

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I think you had references a little bit

of bitterness, you know, in terms of,

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you know, some of those early works.

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Cause I think you think if I

recall, you guys didn't really

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intend to build a career on music.

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So you, you sort of just made the

music and not really thinking.

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And obviously you were inexperienced,

but not really thinking like

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this was going to be the thing.

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So you, I think you at one point

indicated, yeah, like I wouldn't have

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done it the, the, the way it was, but

it was, that was the moment in time.

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Kyle Miller: I'm glad you brought that

up because I feel like there's, there's a

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lot around, um, it's been interesting for

me, um, to try to figure out how to like.

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Accept the wholeness of the journey

when it's been so out in the open.

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Um, I, and not that TOW'rs

is some famous project.

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Like I'm very aware that we're an indie

small to mid level band, but I think it's

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interesting to, to try to figure out.

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Um, the ego in the midst of

all of the sharing, um, and

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how to, how to let the ego die.

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And I, there was a big season of

my life where it was very difficult

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for me to sing certain songs in our

discography, um, based off of what I

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felt like they represented at the time.

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That I wrote them and then contrasting

that to who I feel like I have become.

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But I think, um, over the last couple

of years through thinking and, and, um,

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just being able to, I think just growing

as a, as a person, I'm trying to not

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take all that so seriously, I guess.

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And just understanding that we all,

there's a great poem that we have

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on, we have a little line of it on

the back, um, of our, Uh, of our

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vinyl and it's by Emerson, I believe

I need to look it up, but he says I

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contain multitudes and I, I like that.

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: 00:18:18

I think that we all contain many different

versions of ourselves and part of the

299

: 00:18:23

work of any human is to accept all of

those versions and celebrate and laugh at

300

: 00:18:28

it and take forward the things that were

worth taking forward and not, and this

301

: 00:18:35

maybe gets into the goldfish um, ideas.

302

: 00:18:38

You know, of Ted Lasso and bring, bring

forward the things worth bringing forward

303

: 00:18:43

and forgetting the things that, um,

are just unnecessary, heavy baggage.

304

: 00:18:48

So we actually, I interfaced a lot in

this record with a few of songs that, um,

305

: 00:18:54

I was feeling that way towards because

I wanted to, I wanted to like hold.

306

: 00:19:01

my younger self and be like, I love you.

307

: 00:19:04

I love who you were then.

308

: 00:19:06

And I love who you, we've

become all the Kyle's.

309

: 00:19:09

Jason English (Host): Right.

310

: 00:19:10

Kyle Miller: And I, I want, I think

that's the story I want to tell as an

311

: 00:19:15

artist is, is to be for Gretta and I,

in our relationship, the journey, um,

312

: 00:19:22

of figuring out what it looks like to be

in a partnership and the challenges and

313

: 00:19:26

celebrations, but also, yeah, to have

so many albums and have like, To be, um,

314

: 00:19:32

lucky enough to have had a long enough

career and put out enough, um, and put

315

: 00:19:39

out enough music to kind of, I guess, have

to work with a lot of different versions

316

: 00:19:44

of yourself every time you put a gig on.

317

: 00:19:47

You're like,

318

: 00:19:48

Jason English (Host): Well, I don't

want, I don't want to assume anything,

319

: 00:19:49

but are you mostly referencing like

your old self and your new self

320

: 00:19:54

sort of to that spiritual journey?

321

: 00:19:56

You know, is that, is that

kind of the crux of it or is

322

: 00:19:58

it, is it, am I missing that?

323

: 00:20:02

Kyle Miller: no, you're not,

you're not missing that.

324

: 00:20:04

I think that's a part of it.

325

: 00:20:05

I think there's also parts of it.

326

: 00:20:07

The way that the songs were written

or, um, but that's also, I think why

327

: 00:20:13

maybe they're special and why I've

come to fall in love with them again,

328

: 00:20:16

is that there was a beginner's mind

that I think is important to take

329

: 00:20:21

on all creative endeavors of not

really knowing what you're doing.

330

: 00:20:25

And that being kind of the magic of

why it ends up being kind of cool and

331

: 00:20:30

why people seem to be drawn to it.

332

: 00:20:31

And yeah, the spiritual side of

it was, was a big piece of it.

333

: 00:20:35

Um, but also, um, that, that's

another part of my life.

334

: 00:20:40

I feel like I've kind of come back

around on to having a bit more just

335

: 00:20:44

gentleness and softness with maybe I

have had in the last, um, five years

336

: 00:20:50

just because, I, I really, I really

do think, um, that the intentions of

337

: 00:20:57

that, of that space in my life was to

be kind and love people, and, um, it's

338

: 00:21:01

the same now, and there's a lot of

similar avenues that I take to get there

339

: 00:21:06

spiritually, um, some of them have

changed, but, and that's a big part

340

: 00:21:10

of the Tower story that is important,

I think, to tell and not avoid, um,

341

: 00:21:16

about, you know, our walk with, um,

with faith and, um, Figuring out, out

342

: 00:21:22

what that looks like to us now and how

to take forward the things we're taking

343

: 00:21:26

forward and leave behind the things

that are maybe we're evolving out of,

344

: 00:21:31

Gretta Miller: Yeah.

345

: 00:21:31

I think that, you know, it was a, it was

a big one and the, the two songs that we

346

: 00:21:36

chose to cover from our very first album

are, uh, belly of the Deepest Love and.

347

: 00:21:43

Swelling Sea.

348

: 00:21:44

Mm hmm.

349

: 00:21:44

That's from the first album.

350

: 00:21:45

I almost forgot.

351

: 00:21:45

And Swelling Sea, and yeah, Belly

of the Deepest Love is the song

352

: 00:21:49

that we changed the most lyrics in.

353

: 00:21:52

I mean, really the only song

we changed a lot of lyrics in,

354

: 00:21:54

and, um, it was so interesting.

355

: 00:21:57

I feel like it took us a longer time

than we expected to do that rewrite,

356

: 00:22:02

and to really sit with the song and

feel out what it means to us now.

357

: 00:22:08

Cause the hope was not to critique or

slam anything or anyone, but just to

358

: 00:22:15

realize like, oh, when we wrote this

song and we were singing about this

359

: 00:22:18

sweet connection we feel to the divine,

like we don't want to minimize that.

360

: 00:22:22

We want to make it bigger.

361

: 00:22:24

We want to make it even more

beautiful and expansive and inclusive.

362

: 00:22:28

Um, so yeah, getting to sit with

some of those words and taking out

363

: 00:22:33

some of the blame and shame language

and getting to add words about just.

364

: 00:22:38

Always being carried

and always being free.

365

: 00:22:41

Um, this type of language just feels so

much more full and connective and, um,

366

: 00:22:47

yeah, cause that's still a sweet part

of our life, but we get to, um, yeah,

367

: 00:22:52

just kind of resonate it with the way

that's authentic to who we are now.

368

: 00:22:56

Jason English (Host): Okay.

369

: 00:22:57

That's beautiful.

370

: 00:22:58

Yeah.

371

: 00:22:58

Well, well said.

372

: 00:22:59

Um, so y'all referenced

something that I think is a

373

: 00:23:03

really perfect analogy for this.

374

: 00:23:05

I think you guys said that you had a

bike in your backyard that at one point

375

: 00:23:09

that you were trying to fix up and it

was, you're trying to make decisions

376

: 00:23:13

around, okay, which parts to keep that

are worth keeping and which parts needed

377

: 00:23:16

to be kind of refreshed, I guess, and

I don't want to get into doctrine or,

378

: 00:23:21

or, you know, if it's too personal,

like, let me know, but I'm, I'm, I'm

379

: 00:23:24

actually curious cause I, I have, I

spent a lot of time with young life.

380

: 00:23:28

Uh, and another organization

called K life, which is based on

381

: 00:23:33

a camp in, uh, in, in the Midwest.

382

: 00:23:35

And I mean, I grew up going to church

three times a week, religiously,

383

: 00:23:40

like literally religiously.

384

: 00:23:41

And, uh, it's a big, big, big part of my

childhood and I don't have really regrets.

385

: 00:23:46

I mean, there's, I guess a few here

and there, but my, my faith is, you

386

: 00:23:51

know, some days I'm like, okay, what,

what is it that I actually believe?

387

: 00:23:54

I guess I'm just curious.

388

: 00:23:56

Because that is such an

important part of your life.

389

: 00:23:58

Like, what are those things about the

faith, about your faith as a Christian

390

: 00:24:02

that you still back to the bike are

going to keep, and then, you know, and

391

: 00:24:06

then other things you've sort of like,

you know, swapped, swapped in and out.

392

: 00:24:09

Would you consider yourself Christians

anymore I'm just curious because your

393

: 00:24:12

music is so beautiful and your journey

is so relatable to, I think a lot of

394

: 00:24:17

Christians like in their early to mid

thirties to like fifties that are,

395

: 00:24:21

that have really kind of like looked

back at their childhood and high school

396

: 00:24:25

and college experiences going, okay,

that was cool for a lot of reasons,

397

: 00:24:28

but like, I'm not so sure anymore.

398

: 00:24:30

And I think a lot of us are still

kind of like working through that.

399

: 00:24:34

Kyle Miller: Yeah.

400

: 00:24:34

No, I think you're right.

401

: 00:24:35

Yeah.

402

: 00:24:36

I was just going to say that.

403

: 00:24:37

I think there's a lot

of people who grew up.

404

: 00:24:40

In in that in that world and there was so

much beauty in it, too Um, I think both

405

: 00:24:46

Gretta and I would probably land on a

similar Space I would say um but you know

406

: 00:24:54

to me the whole conversation around like

giving a title to what I believe feels

407

: 00:25:00

really difficult because um, I think as

in like three years ago, if you would

408

: 00:25:06

have asked me this question, I would have

been like nah, man I would have felt like

409

: 00:25:10

I have some sort of ego to preserve or

Like, I felt, like, embarrassed, but I,

410

: 00:25:16

I do think there's so many people that

resonate with it, and the, the great

411

: 00:25:21

thing is, is like, if people disagree

with me, they don't, that's totally fine.

412

: 00:25:24

Doesn't matter to me.

413

: 00:25:26

Um, but where I personally land

these days is, I feel more mystic

414

: 00:25:30

and more, um, of just like a

seeker of, of what I would maybe

415

: 00:25:36

capitalize as, like, just the divine.

416

: 00:25:40

Um, and there's still aspects

of Christianity that are really

417

: 00:25:46

important to me, um, caring

for the poor, um, nonviolence.

418

: 00:25:53

There's lots of, there's lots of,

I think, pillars of that, that

419

: 00:25:58

I, that I hold really dear to me.

420

: 00:26:01

Um, so, and, and there's like,

still a community here that is a

421

: 00:26:07

welcoming community to, to Um, to

us that we love to participate in.

422

: 00:26:13

It, it, it is not traditional in any

sense with like the, the way that it

423

: 00:26:19

goes about, um, talking about that.

424

: 00:26:23

But yeah, for me personally, I think I

land more in, in a space of, mysticism

425

: 00:26:29

and being really okay with not

knowing things and that actually, that

426

: 00:26:34

actually being sort of a foundation,

a comforting foundation for me.

427

: 00:26:40

Um, and yes, in truly seeking and being

open to whatever, um, the divine and God

428

: 00:26:47

can look like and, and seeing that truth

in Other spaces besides Christianity.

429

: 00:26:52

To me, it's not exclusive Christianity,

um, but it is still a space that I

430

: 00:26:58

find truth in, but yeah, I don't, I'm

not sure I would, it involves a larger

431

: 00:27:04

conversation to me to be able to say like,

are you, are you this or are you that?

432

: 00:27:09

To me, I'm just kind of like, man, I

think I'm a, I'm a human who just I

433

: 00:27:14

want to love people well while I have

time on this earth, and I want to, um,

434

: 00:27:22

And if that, if my faith practice helps

me to do that, then I think it's true.

435

: 00:27:27

And I think that for other people too, if

it's causing them to, it's causing them

436

: 00:27:32

to live a life in a way that, Is being

kind and taking care of other people

437

: 00:27:39

and is rooted in loves and I don't know,

I just think, I think it's kind of all

438

: 00:27:43

in, but I know a lot of people wouldn't

agree with that and that's totally fine.

439

: 00:27:47

Jason English (Host): Thank you for that.

440

: 00:27:48

Yeah.

441

: 00:27:48

Gretta anything to add, add to

that from your perspective or

442

: 00:27:52

Gretta Miller: Yeah, I mean, I don't

want to talk too long, but, um, no, I

443

: 00:27:57

mean, I, I love, I love what you said.

444

: 00:27:59

I think there's, there's so much good

in, I think, seeing, Like, the beauty

445

: 00:28:06

of the world around us and the, and

the, the bigness of maybe the idea

446

: 00:28:10

of God, if you resonate with that.

447

: 00:28:12

And I think with me, there's just been

such a, such a shift of like, that's

448

: 00:28:16

not something that's outside of us

that we need to like, go attain, like

449

: 00:28:21

it's something that's already in you.

450

: 00:28:23

It's something that's

already in each of us.

451

: 00:28:25

It's um, so I think really resonating

with like, Oh, like that is, that is

452

: 00:28:30

in me and that is like love and light

and like, I can care for myself and

453

: 00:28:36

I can love myself and how that is

connective and I can, yeah, I just

454

: 00:28:40

think that, I mean, I really still do.

455

: 00:28:43

Um, love like the ideas of, of Jesus and

learning about that and, um, and I think

456

: 00:28:51

it's sad how our culture has taken so

much of that, um, and flipped it upside

457

: 00:28:58

down and used it to persecute and exclude

people and to pick sides and to, um, cause

458

: 00:29:05

violence because it's just the opposite.

459

: 00:29:07

Um, I don't think that, um.

460

: 00:29:09

Learning about God or Jesus means

like, hey, you have to believe these

461

: 00:29:13

things and say this certain prayer.

462

: 00:29:15

Like, I just think that that's bullshit.

463

: 00:29:17

I think that it's like, I think that

it's about like, literally loving

464

: 00:29:21

everyone and like, let's care for this

earth and let's care for each other and

465

: 00:29:25

let's like, make this a kinder world.

466

: 00:29:28

So, um, if that's the type of Christianity

we're talking about where We are partying

467

: 00:29:34

with our gay friends and our female

pastors and our immigrant friends and

468

: 00:29:41

our people who look different and speak

different, and I'm here for that party.

469

: 00:29:45

Jason English (Host):

Yeah, that's well said.

470

: 00:29:46

Um, I don't know.

471

: 00:29:48

I don't know if this was one of the

two songs that you picked off of

472

: 00:29:50

joy alchemy, but Uncertainty comes

to mind like on this topic, right?

473

: 00:29:57

Um, and I think, uh, and again, I'm taking

a stab here cause I don't know if it's on

474

: 00:30:02

the, the, the album that you're about to

announce, but you know, one thing I had

475

: 00:30:06

a conversation with another artist named

a Cereus Bright, he, he's from Tennessee.

476

: 00:30:10

He moved to Mexico

477

: 00:30:11

Kyle Miller: Yeah.

478

: 00:30:11

Jason English (Host): grew up.

479

: 00:30:12

Kyle Miller: I'm aware of street.

480

: 00:30:13

Jason English (Host): Yeah, he has

a pastor's kid and I just had this

481

: 00:30:15

conversation with him like a week and

a half ago where we both were talking

482

: 00:30:20

through and it's like, it's okay to

be uncertain, like the nuance, the

483

: 00:30:24

mystery, you know, like, cause we,

we both were talking about, you know,

484

: 00:30:28

growing up, there was a lot of like

pressure around, well, this is truth.

485

: 00:30:32

It's black and white and like, as you

grow older, at least my, my experience

486

: 00:30:35

was, you know what, it's not, it's not

that clear, you know, and it's okay.

487

: 00:30:40

Right.

488

: 00:30:40

And to your point, like being a seeker

and, you know, being okay with that.

489

: 00:30:44

I think that's, you know,

I can relate to that.

490

: 00:30:46

Right.

491

: 00:30:46

but like the lyric that I love was like

each path we're taking, I'm on your side.

492

: 00:30:50

There's no way of knowing

which one is right.

493

: 00:30:52

Right.

494

: 00:30:52

But we can dance in the hour dance

in the unknown and if heaven gets

495

: 00:30:56

too heavy, we'll just let it go.

496

: 00:30:59

Like, is that, is that not that

every lyric has to have a, like a

497

: 00:31:03

literal kind of tie back, but is

that kind of the, the, the message

498

: 00:31:08

that we're kind of talking about?

499

: 00:31:10

Kyle Miller: Yeah, I think it falls into

that for sure that that song Uncertainty

500

: 00:31:15

has like an umbrella in my in gretta and

i's life And that certainly fall felt

501

: 00:31:20

falls underneath it and that that line

specifically specific to spirituality.

502

: 00:31:27

Um, yeah, I think there was

growing up in that world.

503

: 00:31:34

There was such a fear.

504

: 00:31:35

If I could add anything to what

this conversation, I think there was

505

: 00:31:38

such a fear of the other and fear.

506

: 00:31:40

Um, around, like, being outside of

the, the bubble and of Christianity.

507

: 00:31:50

Um, and, and now feeling like I'm on

the outside of that, it just feels like,

508

: 00:31:55

it's a, to me, everything in my life is,

I just feel so much, it feels so much

509

: 00:32:01

bigger than what words can describe.

510

: 00:32:04

describe.

511

: 00:32:05

in this way.

512

: 00:32:06

And so, yeah.

513

: 00:32:08

Um, the word, the word Christianity and

Christian feels like it's just, it feels

514

: 00:32:14

too small for me to encompass all things.

515

: 00:32:16

But yeah.

516

: 00:32:17

Anyways,

517

: 00:32:17

Jason English (Host): That's

518

: 00:32:18

Kyle Miller: side tangent, that that

song Uncertainty, it is, it's a song

519

: 00:32:23

about even relationships and, um, and

Gretta and I's relationship and how

520

: 00:32:30

True, true Love has to choose each other.

521

: 00:32:33

It can't be.

522

: 00:32:35

I can't, I cannot hold it.

523

: 00:32:37

So a big part of that song was

about a big part of the record.

524

: 00:32:42

Joy Alchemy was about how do

you, how do you detach from the

525

: 00:32:46

person that you're so crazy about?

526

: 00:32:49

Um, in a way that's not, um, being,

indifferent, but in a way that's like

527

: 00:32:57

recognizing them as like a beautiful song

that passes us, passes through us or a

528

: 00:33:02

beautiful sunset that we get to observe.

529

: 00:33:05

And so Uncertainty was about

trying to wrap my head around.

530

: 00:33:11

That aspect of our relationship

and choosing one another and

531

: 00:33:16

choice being an actual choice.

532

: 00:33:18

So, that was the other side of it,

533

: 00:33:20

Jason English (Host): And

Gretta, like back to your point.

534

: 00:33:22

So when I was in college, again, in

my, uh, I'll call it my conservative

535

: 00:33:28

Christian Bible belt era, for lack of

a better term, I wrote, I submitted,

536

: 00:33:33

uh, I was a, I was a journalist,

uh, and I was a journalism major.

537

: 00:33:37

And I started to like write a lot

and I submitted an article to a

538

: 00:33:40

Christian magazine for publication.

539

: 00:33:42

And the title of it was,

Exclusively inclusive.

540

: 00:33:47

And it was the idea about like Jesus

is exclusively, you know, again, if

541

: 00:33:55

you're a Christian, the son of God,

you know, et cetera, et cetera, et

542

: 00:33:57

cetera, but it's exclusive, he's, he's

exclusively inclusive of everybody, right?

543

: 00:34:03

The poor, the homeless refugees,

you know, all those things.

544

: 00:34:07

And I think, um, I love, I love

how you said it, Gretta, because.

545

: 00:34:11

whatever you call it, if

that's Christianity, great.

546

: 00:34:15

Like I'm all in.

547

: 00:34:16

Um, and I think, or whatever it is.

548

: 00:34:20

Um, but that inclusiveness I think

is really important, especially

549

: 00:34:22

like in, you know, in today's world.

550

: 00:34:24

And it's, it's a shame that like,

you know, some people have sort

551

: 00:34:26

of thrown shade on that concept

for lack of a better term.

552

: 00:34:29

Right.

553

: 00:34:31

Gretta Miller: Yeah.

554

: 00:34:31

I know.

555

: 00:34:31

I think that it's a confusing thing

because I think people, when you're fed

556

: 00:34:38

bad theology that, um, that says that

you have to believe a certain thing.

557

: 00:34:45

Or you're going to burn forever in hell.

558

: 00:34:48

Like then it feels like love to, to tell

someone, Hey, you can't be this way.

559

: 00:34:54

Or you can't live like this

because you're trying to save

560

: 00:34:57

them from burning forever in hell.

561

: 00:34:59

Right.

562

: 00:35:00

But, but when you like deconstruct

that and you're like, Oh, What if

563

: 00:35:04

a loving God actually wouldn't burn

their children in hell forever?

564

: 00:35:11

Then, like, maybe there's freedom

because, like, maybe hell's not

565

: 00:35:14

a thing in that type of context.

566

: 00:35:16

Maybe we can bring hell on earth now when

we choose to live in violence and hate.

567

: 00:35:20

But, like, when we can

remove that, like, fear.

568

: 00:35:24

Living in fear of the other and fear of,

like, this Morbid, wretched afterlife,

569

: 00:35:32

like, makes us act in such a way that's

not fully human, I don't think, and so,

570

: 00:35:38

yeah, I, I, I think that when we can

be free of that, then, When we approach

571

: 00:35:43

the other, or someone who's different

than us, or thinks differently than

572

: 00:35:46

us, we don't have to save them, we

don't have to push our beliefs on them.

573

: 00:35:50

We can say, oh, like,

tell me what you think.

574

: 00:35:53

Who are you?

575

: 00:35:53

What do you believe?

576

: 00:35:54

I want to learn from you, because

you hold something different, and

577

: 00:35:57

that's exciting, and that's not scary.

578

: 00:36:00

We can be curious, and we can be

kind, and, so, blah blah blah.

579

: 00:36:05

Lots of,

580

: 00:36:05

Jason English (Host): No, the,

yeah, the, the curious aspect,

581

: 00:36:08

like I'm all about curiosity.

582

: 00:36:09

Right.

583

: 00:36:10

Um, and I love your song curious

woman from the, from the Christian,

584

: 00:36:13

uh, Christmas album, but like

curious curiosity is so under

585

: 00:36:17

underestimated these days.

586

: 00:36:18

And I think, um, again, that

my spiritual upbringing, that

587

: 00:36:21

there wasn't a lot of that, you

know, um, but you know, whatever.

588

: 00:36:24

And I love Kyle, your point.

589

: 00:36:27

Cause I think there's the time

when I was jaded and I was, you

590

: 00:36:30

know, pissed and and everything.

591

: 00:36:32

And Again, judging, you know, and I love

the fact that you've kind of come full

592

: 00:36:37

circle and sort of are gentle and sort

of more, more sympathetic, you know,

593

: 00:36:41

I think that's, that's really cool.

594

: 00:36:43

And I think your music, I

think your music completely

595

: 00:36:45

reflects that, which is awesome.

596

: 00:36:48

Kyle Miller: Yeah, yeah, bitterness

is a tough ground to build on.

597

: 00:36:53

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

598

: 00:36:54

Kyle Miller: So,

599

: 00:36:55

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

600

: 00:36:55

And that's

601

: 00:36:55

Kyle Miller: um, it's a hard place.

602

: 00:36:56

It's a hard place to stay, but for me it

was, um, yeah, I like what you said there.

603

: 00:37:03

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

604

: 00:37:04

Well, no, thank you.

605

: 00:37:04

Um, all right.

606

: 00:37:05

So I guess back to the, sorry, back.

607

: 00:37:07

Yeah.

608

: 00:37:07

That was, that was deep by

the way for, for Monday night.

609

: 00:37:11

Kyle Miller: Yeah,

610

: 00:37:12

Jason English (Host): it was cool.

611

: 00:37:12

Kyle Miller: it's great.

612

: 00:37:13

613

: 00:37:14

Jason English (Host): love it.

614

: 00:37:15

Yeah.

615

: 00:37:15

I love it.

616

: 00:37:15

Um, so I guess back to the 10 year album,

I guess, how, how did the two songs

617

: 00:37:20

per album minus the Christmas album?

618

: 00:37:24

Like, how did you come to those decisions?

619

: 00:37:26

Kyle Miller: wish there was a

really concise way to say what

620

: 00:37:29

we did, but it was pretty random.

621

: 00:37:32

Um, we took it record by record.

622

: 00:37:34

Some of the songs, we still do today.

623

: 00:37:37

Like we play the kitchen at

almost every show that we play.

624

: 00:37:42

Um, and there's a few others off of

our early albums that we still enjoy

625

: 00:37:47

playing every, um, once in a while

we'll still play whiskey and wine.

626

: 00:37:51

We didn't do whiskey and wine on,

on this, um, particular album.

627

: 00:37:55

I think maybe if, maybe there was

actually a way that we did look at it.

628

: 00:38:00

I think the way I tried to view it was.

629

: 00:38:03

I looked at the songs and said, like,

is there anything more to say 10

630

: 00:38:09

years later with this piece of art?

631

: 00:38:12

Um, and that was a cool opportunity

because I think all artists probably feel

632

: 00:38:18

they understand that you could write and

write and write and record and record and

633

: 00:38:22

record and mix and mix and mix forever.

634

: 00:38:24

Songs could just keep, like,

evolving and growing and continuing.

635

: 00:38:28

And I think I was thinking, like, if

these songs had done that for 10 years.

636

: 00:38:33

Which ones would be the ones that I

feel like I could add something to.

637

: 00:38:37

In our old, we had for the first

four years of TOW'rs, we had a

638

: 00:38:42

cello player, four or five years.

639

: 00:38:44

And she since has moved on into

doing a bunch of really neat things.

640

: 00:38:49

And, uh, we had her come back and arrange

all the strings for the most recent music.

641

: 00:38:55

So it's been a while since she's played on

our records, and so we thought it'd be fun

642

: 00:38:59

to To do the most recent stuff

with like a player who had played

643

: 00:39:03

with us like a few years ago.

644

: 00:39:05

645

: 00:39:06

Jason English (Host): Please tell me,

please tell me in Girl in Calico, you

646

: 00:39:09

keep the riff, little guitar riff.

647

: 00:39:12

Kyle Miller: we keep the riff and we

started out acoustic and then we actually

648

: 00:39:16

have a um, Almost like a counter melody

that happens with it If you can even

649

: 00:39:21

imagine it's like the busiest riff in the

entire world and i've made it even busier

650

: 00:39:28

But I like it though and and

I liked it enough to share it

651

: 00:39:32

Jason English (Host): gateway song.

652

: 00:39:33

I'm sure like a lot of other people,

because I think it has a ton of streams,

653

: 00:39:36

but that was my You know, that's a

great, I mean, streaming, everyone's got

654

: 00:39:39

an opinion on streaming as a listener.

655

: 00:39:41

I love it because I get

introduced to music.

656

: 00:39:43

I would have never ever heard.

657

: 00:39:45

And again, I think that popped up.

658

: 00:39:47

Um, so I got, you know, I got divorced

after 25 year marriage, three years ago

659

: 00:39:53

and a move from Colorado to Atlanta.

660

: 00:39:55

And, uh, one of the first people I met.

661

: 00:39:57

You know, she was like, do you,

how do you listen to your music?

662

: 00:40:00

And I was like, well, I'm Apple music.

663

: 00:40:01

And she's like, no, yeah,

you gotta do Spotify.

664

: 00:40:03

It'll, it'll change your life.

665

: 00:40:05

And kudos to her.

666

: 00:40:07

She was right.

667

: 00:40:08

Cause one of the reasons is I,

I've, you know, I came across girl

668

: 00:40:11

in Calico listening to a random

radio playlist, you know, and it

669

: 00:40:14

came up and it's, it's incredible.

670

: 00:40:16

So I can't wait to hear that.

671

: 00:40:18

That's awesome.

672

: 00:40:18

So one thing I am, uh,

again, curious about is.

673

: 00:40:22

If you can go back to the songwriting

of all these songs, you know, I

674

: 00:40:26

think again, you, you all have

talked about the fact that I'm

675

: 00:40:28

with, I'm with you, Gretta on this.

676

: 00:40:31

Cause I was, I, you know, used to

be a reporter, you know, I, I'm

677

: 00:40:34

like, okay, the sky is blue, the

grass is green, you know, and I feel

678

: 00:40:38

sad, you know, like very literal.

679

: 00:40:40

Um, and then, you know, and then you've

got, you know, Edgar Allen Poe there,

680

: 00:40:44

uh, as your husband, it was like, Mr,

uh, Mr, you know, just beautiful poetry.

681

: 00:40:52

It works like with you guys,

you know, working together.

682

: 00:40:55

Um, but have you, have you learned to

become more poetic Gretta and artistic?

683

: 00:41:00

And have you, um, Kyle, you know,

learned to become more, you know, literal

684

: 00:41:05

have you guys kind of found a way to

come together a little bit or is it

685

: 00:41:08

kind of standing in your swim lanes?

686

: 00:41:11

Kyle Miller: Oh man.

687

: 00:41:12

I, I feel like more than ever we've

met each other in the middle with our

688

: 00:41:15

songwriting styles and yeah, we're at

a point now where, um, we can write

689

: 00:41:22

and finish a song in a day together.

690

: 00:41:24

'cause where it used to take

months of fighting and, um.

691

: 00:41:31

Like, seven different versions,

and yeah, I think, I, I really

692

: 00:41:35

appreciate the way that Gretta can,

um, observe something and say, this

693

: 00:41:41

is enough to just say you observe it.

694

: 00:41:44

And you don't have to, like,

make it so prosy, um, to the

695

: 00:41:49

point where no one will get it.

696

: 00:41:50

Like, you're not, you're gonna People are

going to miss what you're talking about.

697

: 00:41:54

And then there's a balance in that too,

because also, I think the gift of poetry

698

: 00:41:59

is that it shows us what we have seen

a million times through a new lens.

699

: 00:42:04

And that's why I keep reading

poetry, even about, like, the divine.

700

: 00:42:09

To me, to read a Hafiz poem about

God, or to read Walt Whitman, um,

701

: 00:42:17

It's like I get this new lens because

the language is not what I'm used to.

702

: 00:42:22

So I think we meet each

other in the middle.

703

: 00:42:24

Oftentimes what we do is we kind of err

Episode 36

30th Nov 2024

A Chat with TOW'rs: Duo Celebrating 10 Years of Music and Transformation with "Versions"

Transcript

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Jason English